Bear containers are coming to ADKs

[Grumpy]

All I'm saying is that we already have a reg in place... it just needs enforcement. Couple it with some education and maybe a sign at the trailhead stating the fine with an arrow pointing you to the nearest (optional) canister rental area.

Trouble is, the bears don't pay any attention to the regulation that now is in place. Nor do they seem to care much about what a nifty job somebody has done in hanging a bag. They just take what they can get at. (I say that for the benefit of those naive souls who insist on characterizing this as strictly a "people" problem.)

The thing is, current bear feeding regulations require that we humans behave "responsibly," which is defined by a negative outcome (an "unfed" bear) rather than by specific, concrete steps we must take to stay on the right side of the law. It is hard for me to imagine that most (or any) people who lose their chow to bears believe they are acting "irresponsibly" or deliberately setting out to feed the bears before it happens. The standard is ambiguous until an incident occurs and then they're left with "well, I guess that didn't work."

My guess is that adding a citation and fine to that disappointment and humiliation would only be gratuitous and mean spirited more than educational in most instances. So, like many of our other laws and regulations, this one as it exists provides a nice avenue for delivering punishment after the fact in egregious cases but does very little in the way of heading off incidents in the first place.

At one point in my checkered career I was involved in writing state level OSHA type standards -- regulations -- for protecting workers in a particular industry from on-the-job injury. This was interesting business. The final goal was, essentially, a negative outcome (no injuries, like an "unfed" bear) but our real task was identifying specific and concrete, positive actions to be taken (best practices) in reaching that goal. I don't think anybody on the industry side of the table (the side I was on) especially liked the idea of more regulations, but over time we all came to appreciate the real importance and value of spelling out just what was to be done in order to achieve compliance. It helped us achieve the common goal -- shared by government and industry interests alike -- of improved on the job safety for workers.

I relate this because I think the real thrust of the likely bear canister regulation is to provide concrete guidance for achieving the goal of not feeding bears in the High peaks boonies. Both compliance and enforcement are simplified because ambiguity is eliminated.

G.

 

[Mark]

Could one of the bear bag experts who have never lost food to a bear please post the method they use to properly hang a bear bag? I'd like to know how to properly hang a bear bag so that I am guaranteed I will never lose food to a bear. Thanks!

 

[hillman1]

The bears in the high traffic areas get properly hung food bags. They even get bags hung on the cables. People that have never lost food probably have avoided flowed lands, lake colden, and marcy dam. I've seen improperly hung bags make it through the night too. It's all moot now, the regulation will be in effect. I'm with alpinesummit on this one. I like the canister. Who wants to screw around hanging food after hiking 15 miles.

 

[Mike D.]

After using a canister earlier this year on an adk. hike , I like the canisters simplicity , eat, close, toss in bush , have food in the morning. I saw a bear cable at marcy dam that was hung over a stump, I could stand on the stump and reach the cable, completely useless. I think the canisters are a good idea.

 

[lumberzac]

Could one of the bear bag experts who have never lost food to a bear please post the method they use to properly hang a bear bag? I'd like to know how to properly hang a bear bag so that I am guaranteed I will never lose food to a bear. Thanks!

I don't normally camp at Marcy Dam or Lake Colden.

 

[jbrown]

The first time I camped at Marcy Dam, my cousin and I hung our food on the cable over the spillway of the dam. We were lucky and our food was spared.

Several times I have camped at either Colden or Flowed Lands. We put our food in 2 stuff sacks, tied the necks together and lifted the bags over the horizontal cable with a big stick. Again, our food was spared.

Other times I have used various toss-the-rock-tied-to-the-rope-over-the-branch-and-try-not-to-hit-myself-in-the-head methods and have never had food stolen.

I probably fall in the category of knowing how to hang a bear bag properly, or thinking I do. The horizontally hung cables seem to be very effective when used properly.

There are too many hikers who either do not know how, or do not care to protect their food properly.

I like the canister idea. It's the only way to take care of the people problem and retrain the ****-sapiens.

 

[mavs00]

Interesting debate..................

And at the risk of sending it into a death spiral, here goes (powers that be.......that's not my intention ).

First.......

(in response to one of my earlier thread)I realize those numbers, but I posted a fact about those numbers (in order to trump silverback's analogy, as speeding has nothing directly to do with bear cans:

Your supposition that 99% of speeding fatalities effects only the non-compliant drivers IS NOT FACT, it's conjecture, and an incorrect one at that (see the link to NTSB report for actual data). It's impossible, therefore, to "trump" anyone with incorrect "factual" information.

Also, I think the analogy of speeding and bear cans is actually fairly decent. Both limit personal freedoms in the interest of the individual and society at large. The interest is of course, decided by "other people" (or the man, if you will) but its intended to provide protection for the individual (i.e. protecting oneself from a documented unsafe activity like speeding on the roadway or protects your personal food supply in a wilderness area), and there’s is also a intended greater societal benefit (i.e. protecting other road users from a documented unsafe activity like speeding and forcing bears to return to a non-human food source).

-------------------------

I think that some of us are thinking in an individual (how this effects me) way, and ignoring the "bigger picture" aspect. I get that sense from the "I've never had a bag stolen", "too many regulations for MY wilderness" comments. That's fine for some things, but I think that there are greater issues at play that have been deemed (by others) more important than just our individual interests. No suprise there, thats probably already happened to all of us several times today alone

After hearing some debate and listening to people are paid to think "whole picture". I think the problem of "Bears in the DAKS" is a much more significant problem than just a few raided bear bags at Marcy Dam. There's been an explosion in the bear population in the last decade or two, an explosion of overnight users, a several year drought (a few years back) that had a significant negative effect on the natural food sources for bears (and other critters). So it more complicated then just "bringing bear canister on overnight hikes" or retraining (or destroying) a few rouge bears. It could GET worse, they could legislate COMPLETE CLOSURE to certain wilderness campsites, like they did out west after several fatal Grizzliy attacks.

Wildlife/Wilderness Management cannot be an easy thing and there are probably tons of factors that are weighed in determining which regulations will help or not be effective in the almost impossible task of balancing our desire to use natural resources and the maintaining of the natural order of things.

One thing we can't argue about. There IS a problem with bears in the HP area. The canisters apparently are coming, that's been decided for us. Will it work? I guess time will tell.

THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE ON MY PART AND NOT BASED ON FACT OR SPECIAL INSIGHT. Just the ramblings of hiker that will attempt to comply as best I can. People much smarter than I are looking into it, I'm sure.

 

[WalksWithBlackflies]

Mark -

I realize you're being sarcastic, but here it goes anyway:

1) DON'T BE LAZY. Give yourself enough time to properly scope out a suitable hanging site. Obviously, it is harder to find a good spot in the dark. Look at more that one possible site.
2) Understand the physical capabilities of a bear (sight, smell, climbing ability, gnawing, scratching, etc.). Use camoflaged bag (you can do this with marker... just to break up the solid color), put all food within zip-lock bags (double if it's smelly), use dark colored string/rope that can withstand biting/clawing. Also realize that the more energy a bear has to waste to get your bag, the less likely it is to pursue.
3) Walk 5 minutes away from camp... that'll be about 1/4 mile on easier terrain. When there aren't suitable sites, I've walked up to 10-12 minutes away.
4) Understand the physical characteristics of your chosen tree limb. Look for a high branch that is thin enough where it can't support a bear's full weight, but the bear can't easily break/gnaw through. Small cubs can make this tricky... gotta make them afraid to go out on the branch (downward sloping branches are great). Throw the string over AT LEAST TWO HIGH BRANCHES. If the bear breaks one, the bag is still secure. I like deciduous trees beacuse the leaves will help hide the bag and there are many small branches to "catch" the bag in case of a fall. I don't like the "bag between two trees" method... all a bear has to do is put his weight on the string and "SNAP".
5) Yes... the above is a PITA, especially after a long hike, but I sleep well knowing that a bear won't get my food. If you're losing sleep, you didn't hang your bag well.

Obviously, I can't GUARANTEE that a bear won't break into my bag (and there are reported cases of bears breaking into canisters). I'm sure some industrious bear will outwit me at some point, but I can confidently say that there wouldn't be a bear problem if people took the time and care to hang their food. That said, I'm afraid most people never will... hence the new reg. You guys are beginning to break me

 

[ADKatie]

My simple girl's take...

1) The bear canister serves as a LOVELY seat for you while you prepare/eat your meal

2) Scenario: You walk the 5 or 10 minutes from camp, in the dark, after hiking all day, go through the process to properly hang your bag like a pro, no bear can possibly get to it. Then you walk back to camp, so proud of your accomplishment and knowing you'll sleep well tonight and eat well tomorrow, only to find you forgot to put in your toothbrush and that Snickers bar that resides permanently in the bottom of your pack "for emergencies". Shoulda had the canister.....

It also makes a great way to carry out garbage or wet gear once you've eaten all the food!

 

[WalksWithBlackflies]

LOL! Been there... done that

 

[ADKatie]

What if the bag you hang doesn't contain food?

What if you want to hang your cookware and dishes, maybe even dirty clothes? Is that allowed?

If the rangers are ticketing people, I'm guessing they check what's hung in the bag and only ticket for the ones containing food and garbage? Or are bear bags just plain gonna get you in trouble, even if they contain non-food items?

Just curious. I prefer to dayhike anyhow, but someday the Northville Placid trail is going to be my wilderness home for a few days, so this is relevant.

 

[spaddock]

I know how to hang a bag, at least I think I do. I've probably hung a bag incorrectly before though. I really did want to give the "PCT" hang method a try, I posted the method a while back.

However, I can be pretty lazy and the idea of chucking the canister into the bush is just too nice and simple. I think all day at work, I think for a lot of time on my hikes, stuff like, am i gonna beat darkness? What did I forget? Is this rock or tree gonna hold me? By the time I get to camp I don't want to think anymore about stuff like, is this a good tree, are the branches suitable, is my bag high enough.... Chuck canister in bush, inflate sleeping mat, lay down sleeping bag, fall asleep just sounds too good to be true.

Rico, your process of hanging bags sounds very detailed, double branches and all. I admire the way you do it. Take a look at the PCT method and tell me what you think, you obviously have some idea what you are doing.


S.

 

[Silverback]

Re: Interesting debate..................

And at the risk of sending it into a death spiral, here goes (powers that be.......that's not my intention ).

First.......


Your supposition that 99% of speeding fatalities effects only the non-compliant drivers IS NOT FACT, it's conjecture, and an incorrect one at that (see the link to NTSB report for actual data). It's impossible, therefore, to "trump" anyone with incorrect "factual" information.

Also, I think the analogy of speeding and bear cans is actually fairly decent. Both limit personal freedoms in the interest of the individual and society at large. The interest is of course, decided by "other people" (or the man, if you will) but its intended to provide protection for the individual (i.e. protecting oneself from a documented unsafe activity like speeding on the roadway or protects your personal food supply in a wilderness area), and there’s is also a intended greater societal benefit (i.e. protecting other road users from a documented unsafe activity like speeding and forcing bears to return to a non-human food source).

-------------------------

I think that some of us are thinking in an individual (how this effects me) way, and ignoring the "bigger picture" aspect. I get that sense from the "I've never had a bag stolen", "too many regulations for MY wilderness" comments. That's fine for some things, but I think that there are greater issues at play that have been deemed (by others) more important than just our individual interests. No suprise there, thats probably already happened to all of us several times today alone

One thing we can't argue about. There IS a problem with bears in the HP area. The canisters apparently are coming, that's been decided for us. Will it work? I guess time will tell.

Ah, SOMEBODY understands my point.

Thanks Mavs, for making it clearer that my old muddled brain could.

I have been a fan of bear canisiters after spending 6 weeks in the Alaskan backcountry. Nothing more exciting/gratifying than listening to 1,000 pound grizzlies playing soccer with your food at night and waking to find it intact.

Any yes, they make excellent seats!

 

[Willie]

... I think the real thrust of the likely bear canister regulation is to provide concrete guidance for achieving the goal of not feeding bears in the [High Peaks]. Both compliance and enforcement are simplified because ambiguity is eliminated.

Now that is logical and insightful rationale for making the current regulation more stringent.

 

[ADKatie]

Alpine, I was thinking the same thing! If anyone coulda seen my quizzical look, head tilted to one side as I stared at it mere inches from my screen.

We can make a game of it, "What's Arm's avatar?"

To me it looks like some mossy growth in the middle of a brown tornado.

 

[lumberzac]

Arm, what the heck are we looking at in your av?????

A newly discovered solar system perhaps?

I think it's looking through a hole up at a tree canopy.

 

[Rik]

First let me say that, although it saddens me that it has come to this point, I think the cannisters are necessary in high traffic areas of the high peaks. We need to do something different than what is happening now. Every time I go into the woods I'm disgusted looking at broken food bags with nothing but wrappers, coffee, and toothbrushes. I think if we find a way to stop rewarding the bears for their efforts they will go elsewhere. I am also not sure that the bear population in the high peaks has significantly increased. It is my understanding from talking with some of the rangers, and we will know more once the current "collar and study" research is in, that most of the bears travel some distance to the high peaks during the summer months for food. Much as the grizzlies migrate during salmon runs. If there were no salmon the bears would stop going there and would find another food source. Just my two cents.

 

[masshysteria]

Rico gave the best description of hanging a bear bag I've read anywhere. It's not nuclear science, just a little common sense.

But I think what hillman had to add was the most appropriate; don't stay at Marcy Dam, Lake Colden, or Flowed Lands. I don't like the crowds, so I don't stay at these places. It's worth it for me to hike another mile past MD and stay at the relatively quiet Avalanche Camp. I'm also not stupid enough to think that the same bear that had lunch at MD isn't going to saunter over to AC to inspect my dinner menu. I think that proper hanging, and staying away from the cafateria areas will keep my food for me.

One final tidbit, the Wildlife officer I talked with told me of the bears he was monitoring with radio collars. One of them, whom he calls green/blue,(the color of the tags in his ears) was sighted stealing food at JBL one day, and the next he was doing his larceny at Slant Rock. Plus he has monitored green/blue heading over to Upper Works to check things out there. He added that green/blue weighed about 350 lbs., and probably would end up in the hunter's sights because of his lack of fear of humans.

 

[escapee]

I am a bear bag expert who has never lost a bag to a bear. I know how to hang a bag, and use a 2:1 pulley system to hoist bags up without breaking branches which will not support a bear cub. (THe rock-in-a-sock over the branch and brute force haul-up accounts for a lot of broken branches that could have supported a bag hung with more finesse.) Nonetheless, I cannot guarantee that a bear will not somehow bring it down.

After hanging a bag on a recent trip, I stood up on a fallen log beneath it to gauge the height off the ground, mindful of the illustration in the ADK High Peaks map of the mama bear with cub on shoulders. A fellow camper asked if I really thought the bears would figure out to stand on a log. I asked him if he had ever been to the circus, and this seemed to answer his question. They are smart, resourceful, and when hungry enough, there are no guarantees. I make it difficult enough so that they get no reward at my campsite to encourage them to return.

 

[Artex]

My 2 cents

Isn't the whole "well, I know how to properly hang a bear bag" point somewhat moot? I've also hung bear bags in bear country several dozen times, and never had a problem because apparently I did it right. That's great, but several people obviously aren't doing it right. It's only a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt in a bear encounter, and in turn, the repurcusions won't be good for the bears. Mandatory bear canisters seems like the best solution to me.

Lumberzac, I think Pennsy was telling me you guys saw that the rangers in the Daks were "baiting" bears by leaving food out and shooting the bears with rubber bullets when they came in? I saw a story on the Discovery Channel where they were doing something similiar in Michigan with good results. I'm just glad they're getting serious about the issue.