Blantant Breaking of the Hiking Rules

[scree flinger]

I saw this posting on the trail condition forum:

"If you hike with a dog as I do you will need to assist your pet through some the of the boulder field areas. [ladders, drops, holes] I know the rule is to have your pet on a leash but if you do this through a high percentage of this loop you take the risk of having you animal pull you off balance and a serious fall could happen. Forget the leash rule - unsafe action!! [I do must of the time anyway]"

Isn't more advisable to leave the dog home that weekend? I know many rules I would like to break, ( having a fire or camping on a peak) but I don't out of respect to others and the laws.

I hope this is the exception rather than the rule with most hikers.

 

[bobandgeri]

This thread is likely to turn nasty!


Let us start by saying we are not dog owners. While there may be some areas with a rule that states a dog must be on a leash - in most areas we all hike that is not the case. It is considered courteous to have your dog under control - this does not mean having them on a leash. We take our neighbors dogs hiking with us whenever we can - they are very well behaved - they come when called, basically ignore other hikers, do not chase wild life, do not bark, and will even go well off the trail to poop. We do have leashes with us in case there are people around that are afraid of dogs, but 99% of the time they are under control via methods other than a leash.

Dogs are natural scramblers and if given the chance to pick their own path will do so with our needing help much of the time. The more they hike the better they get at this.

Leaving a dog at home is not going to turn it into a well behaved dog or let it learn how to scramble up rocks or climb a ladder. If you have a dog that you control by way of a leash - wait until there are no others around before you take it off the leash to get over the obstacle. The more time you spend with your dog hiking together, the more time you have to work on it's behavior on the trail. Just like kids - dogs need to be trained.

 

[Wild]

I don't see any problem with letting the dog off the leash in tricky areas, provided the dog is well-behaved and will heel when other hikers appear. Dogs and people scramble at different paces, so having the dog leashed could be dangerous at worst and awkward at best. My experience has been that most dog owners are responsible, considerate people; it is those unfortunate few - careless people with untrained, misbehaved animals - who ruin it for others. I say this as someone who is not a dog owner.

In general, following rules blindly is not always the best thing to do. I'm not advocating breaking the rules haphazardly, but in this fellow's case, what would be worse: his dog startles a couple of timid hikers, or he injures himself badly enough that those other hikers have to abort their hike to go get him help?

 

[funkyfreddy]

Horror of horrors!

I can't believe it, you mean people actually let their dog off the leash when they're out hiking? Quick, call Homeland Security!!! How dare they allow their pets to run unchained in American forests! After all, we wouldn't want to give anyone the impression this is still a free country now,would we?!?

 

[scree flinger]

Worse would be a tired hiker, perhaps with a heavy pack, in a "tricky area", balanced precariously to reach or jump across something on a steep incline. Just as he moves ole' fido comes bounding over a rock, off leash, and knocks you off balance. Numerous scenarios can only be imagined that could happen miles away from help. Yes, most dogs and owners don't do that however I have had many run in's with large unattended dogs wearing my weekend pack on a narrow, steep ledge trails over the years. Not pleasent to say the least. ALL dogs should be leashed, at the very least carry a long piece of rope for those tricky areas. Remember, the other hiker(s) has no idea of your dogs personality. Recommending to others to brake the rules in the Adirondack High Peaks dosen't make sense unless it's an emergency.

 

[hillman1]

I don't bring my dog to the high peaks because he is anti-leash. However, a ranger has told me that it is AOK to unleash your dog in areas that you deem unsafe for leashed travel. I've read in a lean-to register about a guy carrying his yellow lab in his pack through the area in question. I'm feeling a locked thread coming this way...Anyone want to predict a # of posts. This one is like a bear canister thread...

 

[Peakbagr]

Hillman,

You really had me laughing.


.....tick, tick, tick, tick

 

[Frosty]

Worse would be a tired hiker, perhaps with a heavy pack, in a "tricky area", balanced precariously to reach or jump across something on a steep incline. Just as he moves ole' fido comes bounding over a rock, off leash, and knocks you off balance.

Perhaps the tired hiker ought to think twice before trying to jump across a steep incline with a heavy pack while balanced precariously. Then, while he's thinking, the dog will go bounding by. See? It's all good. (Then the precariously-balanced, tired hiker with the heavy pack can attempt to leap over something on the steep incline to his heart's content.)

 

[Butch79]

Attack of the Giant Leashes

For folks without a dog of their own, Bob & Geri above sure know whereof they speak. I have a leash handy for my guy in case we run into a gaggle of hikers or someone else's rambunctious pooch, and just to comply with ADK regs when need be, but he's too courteous and well-behaved a hiker for a leash to be necessary on the trail in general (and, frankly, probably better than I am at keeping to a herdpath when it becomes indistinct or confused). Impractical, too: he's about two-thirds my body weight, so being tied to him while we're clambering over rocks and logs would have me doing more falling than walking. No argument here that dogs in the backwoods should be "under control" and not allowed to go charging up to other hikers, climbers, and campers -- but, all due respect to hikers with overanxious attitudes toward dogs in general, when I'm in the woods, it's other hikers I encounter that get my antenna up, not dogs. Dogs are a lot easier to read than people.

Happy trails --
Uncle Butch

 

[snowshoe]

You can have the most well behaved dog but that person coming up the trail does not know that. Besides they could be afraid of all dogs. I have seen this happen more than once. Is their a name for a dog Phobea (Did I spell that correctly ) I am in no way against dogs, It does not matter to me whether they are leashed or not. I just hate stepping in their poop. Just wanted to throw this out and add some fuel to the fire .

 

[ADackR]

Perhaps the tired hiker ought to think twice before trying to jump across a steep incline with a heavy pack while balanced precariously. Then, while he's thinking, the dog will go bounding by. See? It's all good. (Then the precariously-balanced, tired hiker with the heavy pack can attempt to leap over something on the steep incline to his heart's content.)

this one got me, pretty funny...

people without dogs have a wild imagination...yes some dogs on the trail may be alittle excited and may run up to you but have you ever seen a dog on the trail come and attack someone.... i mean, even if i was deathly afraid of dogs i think if i were to come upon one on the trail that my logical thinking process will take over and say, hey, this dog looks none like a wild animal, this trail is well traveled, would someone really bring a crazy dog on a trail like this???

maybe it's just me....

i've met rangers on the trail in winter and summer in the ADK high peaks and have had my dog with me and asked them about situations like this and each one has said it is okay in tricky areas....but i only have brought my dog 3 times into the eastern peaks just because of this rule, anywhere outside that boundry you can bet you'll see my dog off a leash......

happy hiking

 

[Rivet]

however I have had many run in's with large unattended dogs wearing my weekend pack on a narrow, steep ledge trails over the years. Not pleasent to say the least.

If you have a problem with a particular dog on the trail, you should talk to its the owner at that time. Or report it to a ranger if you feel it was a serious enough infraction of the rules.

Complaining about it later on a public forum won't do much good.

 

[Dugan]

Yes, Bob & Geri are very sensible about dogs. They were able dog-sherpas in assisting the pooch at the left up a few of the ledges the Blueberry Ridge trail!

My view on this issue is no doubt tainted by the fact that the dogs I have owned and hiked with are too large for me to carry through tricky areas such as the one outlined. But I will say this: if an area is posted that a dog must be leashed, my dog is on a leash. Period. If I cannot get through that area with a leashed dog, then I don't go there with a dog.

I've seen too many previously dog-friendly areas become non-dog areas through the owners not obeying posted rules.

 

[scree flinger]

3. In the High Peaks Wilderness Area, no person shall:
x. leave a pet unattended or fail to maintain complete control over the pet;

xi. fail to have, in their immediate possession, proof of a valid and current rabies inoculation for any dog which is accompanying them;

4. In the Eastern High Peaks Zone, no person shall fail to leash pets on trails, at primitive tent sites, at lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates, provided that this provision shall not be applicable to hunting dogs which, with a licensed hunter, are actively hunting during appropriate hunting seasons at locations other than primitive tent sites, lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates.

Yes, I have seen two instances in the high peaks where an unleashed dog attacked: a 12 year girl sitting eating lunch was jumped on and bit on the hand. The second time a large mutt dogg attacked a smaller dog that was on leash. I was glad that I had my hiking sticks to help this poor woman who was helpless trying to fight off this dog and keep control of hers. It took several stikes in it's head to stop it from attacking. No owner was around to control it.
I am not complaining, just hoping people with dogs leash them and not recommend to others to "Forget the leash rule - unsafe action!! [I do must of the time anyway]" People are sick and tired of being harrased by unleashed dogs whether they just wander up to you begging for your food or doing worse. As far as saying something to the owner of an unleashed dog, I learned my lesson the first time I mentioned that to a couple with a loose dog on a summit in the high peaks: I was sworn at, yelled at, call a SOB and felt very threatend many long miles from any law enforcement officer. I just grit my teeth and move on now when I see someone braking the leash law.

 

[VTskier]

First let me say that I love dogs. I had one growing up and had one most of my adult life. However, that changed a few years back when my son was born. When he was about one year old, he tested positive for asthma, which is triggered by dogs and cats.

Now when we are out hiking (he's 6), we often (50% of the dog encounters) run into dogs off leash running up to us. My son does his best to avoid touching the dog, often hiding behide me as I try to get the dog away from us. The owner is often coming up the trail yelling that the dog is very friendly. Well, hell yes it friendly, but your uncontrolled dog can had cause serious health problems for us!

So, I don't care how you do it, but keep your dog within a few yards of you, and don't assume that everyone wants to pet and be licked by your dog. Its not a fear of the dog, but there could be serious health issues your dog may trigger.

 

[TCD]

Ahhhhh! The "dog" thread appears again.

So let's review what we agree on:

Everyone seems to agree that dogs on the trail must be somehow controlled by the owners, whether it be by leash or command.

And, that seems to be about all we agree on!!!

Here are a few opinions:

Rules: Need to be followed. A lot of people have an easy way of reasoning that a particular rule they don't like, shouldn't apply to them. Dugan, you are right on the mark. Just like any other rule, a few people can easily spoil for everyone. I'm very familiar with this as a climber who studiously avoids trespassing, no matter how good the rock or ice looks, because it's a quick way to get the whole area closed to climbing. It's just like using the snowshoes, even though you think you can get there faster without them.

People are different: I love dogs. Grew up with them. Don't have one currently (actually we have CATS, if you can imagine that. I've often wondered what it would be like to bring the cats on a hike...). I am totally unafraid of dogs, and I love to meet them and play with them. I've been bitten a couple times, and I still love dogs.

But I don't presume that the way I feel is automatically the way everyone else feels. (This is important.) My hiking partner is fairly good with dogs, but sometimes has some apprehension. That's an example that shows that everyone is different. Remember that. Just because you dislike dogs, or like them, doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.

Dogs are different: I know a lot of great dogs. 95% of dogs I meet in the woods are great. But I have also met "not so great" dogs. Some dogs, for whatever reason, are fearful of strangers. I can think of a few examples:

The dog that bit me while his owner and I were pushing a blowdown off a trail in Vermont. The owner was apologetic, but acted surprised that the dog had acted this way.

The cute little dog a guide had at the summit of Owl's Head, that was terrified of everyone, snarling and snapping and shying away. The owner insisted that the dog "never acted this way," trying to suggest that it was something about me. While I was enjoying the summit, several other parties came up the popular trail. The dog acted the same way with each of them.

The dog we met in the Saddleback - Basin col, that was so scared of strangers that the owners had to both hold it while it growled and trembled. They had to fashion a muzzle out of webbing to control it, but they said the dog was usually fine...

So once again, just like with people, don't presume that all dogs are the same. Dog dislikers, remember that most dogs are wonderful. My friends dogs are like those described by Bob and Geri; well behaved, know enough to poop of trail, etc. Dog owners, please don't be in denial. If your dog has a personality that makes it inappropriate for it to be around strangers, DON'T bring it hiking. Some dog owners have a way of believing that a dog must be great because it's their dog. Newsflash: You don't always get a good dog.

TCD

 

[Rivet]

Well, there's no excuse for a dog biting someone or attacking another dog. These dogs should be left home. A mean dog on a leash is still a mean dog.

Speaking of getting threads closed ... How about those Sox?

 

[ADackR]

Ahhhhh! The "dog" thread appears again.

So let's review what we agree on:

Everyone seems to agree that dogs on the trail must be somehow controlled by the owners, whether it be by leash or command.

And, that seems to be about all we agree on!!!

Here are a few opinions:

Rules: Need to be followed. A lot of people have an easy way of reasoning that a particular rule they don't like, shouldn't apply to them. Dugan, you are right on the mark. Just like any other rule, a few people can easily spoil for everyone. I'm very familiar with this as a climber who studiously avoids trespassing, no matter how good the rock or ice looks, because it's a quick way to get the whole area closed to climbing. It's just like using the snowshoes, even though you think you can get there faster without them.

People are different: I love dogs. Grew up with them. Don't have one currently (actually we have CATS, if you can imagine that. I've often wondered what it would be like to bring the cats on a hike...). I am totally unafraid of dogs, and I love to meet them and play with them. I've been bitten a couple times, and I still love dogs.

But I don't presume that the way I feel is automatically the way everyone else feels. (This is important.) My hiking partner is fairly good with dogs, but sometimes has some apprehension. That's an example that shows that everyone is different. Remember that. Just because you dislike dogs, or like them, doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.

Dogs are different: I know a lot of great dogs. 95% of dogs I meet in the woods are great. But I have also met "not so great" dogs. Some dogs, for whatever reason, are fearful of strangers. I can think of a few examples:

The dog that bit me while his owner and I were pushing a blowdown off a trail in Vermont. The owner was apologetic, but acted surprised that the dog had acted this way.

The cute little dog a guide had at the summit of Owl's Head, that was terrified of everyone, snarling and snapping and shying away. The owner insisted that the dog "never acted this way," trying to suggest that it was something about me. While I was enjoying the summit, several other parties came up the popular trail. The dog acted the same way with each of them.

The dog we met in the Saddleback - Basin col, that was so scared of strangers that the owners had to both hold it while it growled and trembled. They had to fashion a muzzle out of webbing to control it, but they said the dog was usually fine...

So once again, just like with people, don't presume that all dogs are the same. Dog dislikers, remember that most dogs are wonderful. My friends dogs are like those described by Bob and Geri; well behaved, know enough to poop of trail, etc. Dog owners, please don't be in denial. If your dog has a personality that makes it inappropriate for it to be around strangers, DON'T bring it hiking. Some dog owners have a way of believing that a dog must be great because it's their dog. Newsflash: You don't always get a good dog.

TCD

so nice, very well said.

you can add another agreement to the list.....people with uncontroling or scared of others dog should be left home....

did somone say close this down

vote nader

 

[mavs00]

Scree Flinger,

This is a very valiant effort to get a another "nasty" dog thread started, and keep it going with further inflaming posts, but I'm afraid timing is NOT on your side. You see, we now live in a different, more peaceful, less stressful time. For the most part people are too happy to bicker over this VERY TIRED topic. After all, the RED SOX are the WORLD CHAMPIONS. Let me say that again.

the RED SOX are the WORLD CHAMPIONS

Wait another month or two (when people come back down to earth) and you'll have a much more lively debate. Until then, ENJOY the woods, hike your own hike, and try not to worry about unleashed rabid, domestic canine devils waiting to attack you around every tree

//-- See peak, you can still sqeeze in a reference and stay on topic --//

 

[Grumpy]

I’m always amused when people jump into a discussion like this, make their remarks, predict it’s going to get nasty, and then suggest shutting down the thread.

TCD seems to have a good handle on the issue, above. I have little to add.

Dugan is right.

Bob & Geri have an excellent perspective.

VTSkier added something to really think about (the asthma thing).

So far this has been a pretty civil conversation. But it could deteriorate and turn outright ugly.

Now we can close this thread.

G.