Buy the book, please!

[albee]

I have noticed that a number of people have been posting questions such as:

"How many miles is this loop?"
or
"How long do you think this trip will take me?"
or
"Is Huntington's Ravine steep?"

These are certainly valid questions, but part of me is concerned that these people are simply looking at a map or reading trip reports and just picking trips without fully researching them. I can recall when I just started hiking that the White Mountain Guide was my most treasured posession. I would study the route descriptions, elevation gains, mileages to trail landmarks, and maps so that I knew what I was getting into. I would plan out fantastic trips and picture what the trails would look like in my mind. Now it has become too easy to just ask a question here and happily traipse off into the woods without being fully prepared. (Part of my point is - people that ask such rudimentary questions probably don't know what they're getting themselves into, and our opinions might be biased towards people with more experience.)

I know that some of the current crop of guidebooks leave much to be desired, and asking questions here will almost always get you more than you bargained for in terms of route suggestions or information. That being said, I still think having a guidebook would be a good investment and a strong step in the right direction towards learning more about the area that you're hiking in. You never know when you might get lost, take the wrong trail, miss a trail junction, or worse.

Does anyone else feel that there have been more than a few questions that simply consulting the guidebook could answer lately? How can someone ask, "How long would this trip take?" when only they will know what speed in relation to "book-time" they hike? Please, buy a guidebook, people! VFTT members are a great resource to have but we can't take the place of everything you can learn by physically turning the pages yourself.

 

[David Metsky]

BTW, how long does it take to hike the Pemi Loop?



Yes, buy the book.

-dave-

 

[bikehikeskifish]

The AMC: White Mountain Guide combined with Mohammed's primer based on said book (http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/) got me going. I almost always consult both.

Tim

p.s. Dave--are you running or hiking?

 

[griffin]

I bought the new White Mountain Guide even though I already had an earlier edition.

It was shiny...

 

[sapblatt]

Even though I just put a thread up about the Madison Gulf Trail I thoroughly agree with albee here - sometimes I like to confirm some things I may have heard etc. It is also nice to hear that some descriptions are off, or to get a comparison to another trail. I have the last three eds. of the WMG and all but the newest one are dog eared beyond belief!

I know the answer to how long any trip will take me - a long time!

 

[nartreb]

How long will the pemi loop take?

That question came up many times when that article appeared in _Backpacker_.

Lessee now, typing that question in Google's search field, first result:

http://www.davidalbeck.com/hiking/pemiloop.html#far

Nothing magic about the book, the same info is usually available in many places. The major exception is the maps, in most places the non-AMC maps are sufficiently out-of-date to show phantom trails.

Personally, I love to go on hikes without fully researching them. But I do like to know that my map is accurate.

 

[Dugan]

BTW, how long does it take to hike the Pemi Loop?



Yes, buy the book.

-dave-

and once you buy it - OPEN IT!! I ran into a man around Garfield once. He asked me where he could camp. He said he was headed out to Lincoln Woods the next day. I let him know about Garfield campsite and 13 Falls. He asked how far to each. I got out my guide to look them up, asking whether he had a guide and maps. He said that he did, but it was still shrink wrapped and he didn't want to open it!!!

 

[Tom Rankin]

The book is great, but it will not answer questions such as:

Is there any blowdown across the trail?

How much snow did we get last night?

Didn't that trail just get re-routed?

I heard beavers made the trail impassable last month?

Etc.

That's what this board is for!

 

[albee]

http://www.davidalbeck.com/hiking/pemiloop.html#far

Shameless self promotion, but I do like your website.

 

[DougPaul]

I second the motion. I've gotten in the habit of ignoring posts from people who are too lazy to do their own research where the info is readily available in the standard guidebooks or various websites (eg Dave's hikethewhites).

Same goes for people who want GPS waypoints/routes for a trailed route. It is very easy to set your own and you will learn the local terrain in the process of researching/setting your own--knowledge that could become very useful in certain circumstances...

<flamesuit on>
Many also feel that dealing with uncertainty is part of hiking/mountaineering. Thus one should not have to know where every blowdown is on a route. Deal with them as they come or turn back.
<flamesuit off>

When I was the defacto computer sysadmin, I frequently used to answer questions with what part of the manual they should read. Some users even preferred this style of answer... (I gave more detail to beginners or where the answer was not obvious from the manual.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

I got out my guide to look them up, asking whether he had a guide and maps. He said that he did, but it was still shrink wrapped and he didn't want to open it!!!

He should buy 2 copies--one to use and one for his museum...

Doug

 

[TEO]

Pfffft!

Since I recently asked how long certain loop is and how people compared to another loop, I take personal offense.

A) This bulletin board was designed for such questions.

B) I own the AMC WMG and about the only thing it is good for are the maps that come with it and the the mileage. The elevation data is virtually useless, since, as far as I can tell, they only give net vertical gained.

C) Based on the AMC WMG, who wouldn't wonder how steep/scary Huntington, King, or Madison are?

D) (1)Have you hiked 28+ miles in a day that included two climbs that were 1,700'-2,000' vert, both in 0.5-0.75 miles? (2) Have you spent the better part of two days bushwhacking through stuff so dense that it often limited travel to 0.25-0.3 miles per hour?

E) I asked my loop distance/comparison question specifically because I figured some hikers with similar experiences could confirm my expectations about a planned route and because I hadn't yet had the time to add up the exact mileage.

To quote webmaster Darren:

The Q&A forum is for backcountry questions that are specific to New England. Examples of suitable questions are:

* Which direction should I hike the North & South slides route on Tripyramid?
* Is the Gray Knob cabin heated in winter?
* Is Tripoli Road open in winter?
* What is the best backcountry ski route on Moosilauke?
* How difficult are the river crossings on the North Twin trail?
* Has anyone here climbed Fafnir? I need some beta on the exit.
* Are the bald eagles still nesting at the north end of Lake Umbagog?
* How is the mountain biking at the Kingdom Trails?

Albee, with these guidelines in mind, your post that started this thread would not seem to be suitable for this sub-forum.

P.s.
The maps in the AMC WMG say that Tripoli Road is not open in winter.

 

[griffin]

The book is great, but it will not answer questions such as:

Is there any blowdown across the trail?

How much snow did we get last night?

Didn't that trail just get re-routed?

I heard beavers made the trail impassable last month?

Who has the coldest beer down the road from the trailhead...

 

[una_dogger]

The book is great, but it will not answer questions such as:

Is there any blowdown across the trail?

How much snow did we get last night?

Didn't that trail just get re-routed?

I heard beavers made the trail impassable last month?

Etc.

That's what this board is for!

I couldn't agree with you more, Tom. And certain guidebooks do not include a "book time" -- like the WMNF guide does. Sometimes its nice to ask your hiking friends what approaches they've taken to certain peaks, and how they have compared to the standard routes.

Even with guidebooks, often there are questions left unanswered. Guide books give a rough estimate -- yes I agree everyone should hike prepared -- and owning a guide book is a good start. But I do not think owning or not owning one should preclude an interested person from asking questions of the hiking community. No one is being forced to answer or participate in the discussion, after all.

Albee, you wrote:
VFTT members are a great resource to have but we can't take the place of everything you can learn by physically turning the pages yourself.
That's true, but in your opening statement you stated that you observed that people here have been asking questions you think the guide book can answer. So you are essentially talking about some members here not being as prepared as you think that they could be. I guess I'm not really sure what your position is and what this thread is supposed to achieve??

 

[kmorgan]

I bought the new White Mountain Guide even though I already had an earlier edition.

It was shiny...

Me too. I just wanted to do my part to support the AMC.... That and I like new books!

 

[MichaelJ]

I understand where Albee's coming from. We don't want to become the "cell phone" of beta information. Nobody should just tramp into the woods with the sum of their preparation being a VFTT post. But I also agree:

Even with guidebooks, often there are questions left unanswered.

Indeed. Let's make sure we still help people and still answer their questions, no matter how naive one thinks they are. One person's self-evident question is not another's.

We're supposed to be here to help each other, and perhaps that guidance is "you should get this book", or perhaps "that's answered in the new edition of X you must have the old", but let's be proactive about helping other hikers in that regard. Nicely.

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

When I was the defacto computer sysadmin, I frequently used to answer questions with what part of the manual they should read.

Since Doug was (IIRC) a UNIX sysadmin he must have told them to RTFM. The polite expansion of that acronym is "Read The Friendly Manual. I have heard rumors that some vulgar people have expanded that acronym in a slightly differnt way

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

The AMC: White Mountain Guide combined with Mohammed's primer based on said book (http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/) got me going. I almost always consult both.

Please note that my web site is intended as a complement to the WMG, not as a substitute.

 

[Dugan]

Since I recently asked how long certain loop is and how people compared to another loop, I take personal offense.

I, for one, meant no personal offense. I haven't seen the thread you mention.

I too agree with Tom Rankin. Guidebooks are useful for some things, personal experience for others. One is not meant to supplant the other, both are valuable resources.

If you're looking up how long a route is, or what the elevation gain is - the guidebook is probably your best answer. If you're wondering what others of similar experience think of the route, or how the weather may have affected it, then a check of trail conditions and TR's might be in order.

Remember the good ol' days when there were no TR's, or trail conditions, or even the Weather Channel? You just packed up and went, and dealt with what Mother Nature handed out.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Since Doug was (IIRC) a UNIX sysadmin he must have told them to RTFM. The polite expansion of that acronym is "Read The Friendly Manual. I have heard rumors that some vulgar people have expanded that acronym in a slightly differnt way

RTFM. It contains Figure 1

And Mohammed -- I did say combined. I typically use your site for route determination. Recently I've been using it to find the easiest hikes for my knees. I always read the AMC guide to get the details. My hiking partners always refer to me as "the tour guide"

"What happened to Doug?"

"Doug? Ah, he grep'd when he should have awk'd".

See grep(1) and awk(1) in the FM

Tim