Car Blocked in By Trees No Help from Loj

[spaddock]

We hiked in via South Meadows Friday night and hiked out Sunday morning. Judging by all the fallen trees on the trail road we figured there must have been a huge storm saturday night that I guess we slept right through in the lean-to.

When we got back to our car we started driving down South Meadows road only to have a van stopped right in the middle of the road. We got out to see what was wrong and there was a huge fallen tree blocking access out. The guys in the van had already broken two ropes trying to drag it with their commercial sized van. One of the guys in the van had walked down to the Loj to get help. The 3 of us being pretty big boys figured we could lever it across inch by inch. Sure enough we did it, not sure how as we were pretty exhausted from the hike as well.

So we drive down about 30 seconds only to find another tree. By this time their guy had had come back from the Loj. Apparently he was told by trail maintenance workers that it wasn't their problem it was the state highway maintenance's responsiblility. He called them but they weren't picking up (probably a lot of fallen stuff that day). He asked if he could borrow a chainsaw and was told for liability purposes he couldn't take it. They didn't even want to come out and help us with the saw.

In all there were four huge fallen trees that we had to move. Had I been solo there was no way I could have moved that myself. Is everybody so lawyer crazy now that for "liability" reasons you can't help your fellow man. I was really surprised that outdoors people wouldn't help out fellow hikers. I wasn't there so maybe this guy was lying about the whole thing but I was there moving the trees and nobody came out to help.

I wonder what the U.S. customs officer is going to say when he sees a chainsaw in my trunk the next time I cross the border.


-Shayne

 

[hillman1]

I was in the Sewards this weekend, and there was tons of blowdown on the access road. By the time I drove out sunday, all of the hunters using the area had cleared the road up nicely. Saturday night and Sunday morning saw a significant wind event where we were, and there is tons of new blowdown for the hike into the sewards and on the herd paths.

 

[Panama Jack]

Yes everyone is Lawyer crazy

That is a VERY disappointing story. I don;t know who's crazier, the Lawyers or those who call them!

 

[Peakbagr]

Shayne,

The Loj Road is a 5 mile long public road.
Even if the ADK had the staffing for it, it really was not their problem. While, ideally, it would be nice to think that someone would come to our aid, the North Elba Hwy Dept are the ones responsible.

The ADK employee is correct, it becomes a liability or worker's compensation issue if an incident or injury happens while they are trying to be good samaritans.

None of us may like it, but given the litigious climate in the U.S., its a reality we have to live with.

 

[spaddock]

Even if the ADK had the staffing for it, it really was not their problem.
And the ADK employee is correct, it becomes a liability or worker's compensation issue if an incident or injury happens while they are trying to be good samaritans.

None of us may like it, but given the litigious climate in the U.S., its a reality we have to live with.

What do you mean it really isn't their problem? Of course its not "their" problem. If I'm walking down the street and I see a house on fire, hmm should I call 911... well its not "my" problem. If I see someone in need of help I'm gonna stop. In fact I did stop on the way home that night to help out a driver who was having car trouble. Are you saying I shouldn't have because it wasn't "my" problem?

And ok so don't come down and help, stay inside from the rain and chit chat, but at least they could have taken our credit card as insurance and given us the chainsaw.

I'm really not trying to start a flame war or anything but I just can't understand how people would refuse to help someone in need of help and blaming the legal system isn't really an excuse in my books.


-Shayne

 

[Grumpy]

Maybe hikers should take a cue from the hook-and-trigger crowd when they go to the woods. That is, be prepared to fend for yourself on the road as well as on the trail. Might not be a bad thing to have an axe and saw and stout rope or tow strap in your vehicle when using off-the-beaten-track trailheads like South Meadow, Upper Works, Coreys Road, etc..

By the way, it would seem OK to use your tools in lending somebody else a hand if they need it. I learned that in Boy Scouts, among other places, growing up.

G.

 

[stoopid]

I just can't understand how people would refuse to help someone in need of help and blaming the legal system isn't really an excuse in my books.

I agree with the good samaritan attitude. It's definitely the more 'spiritual' path. We live in a very spiritually sick world where such deeds are considered weak, inconvenient, or even ILLEGAL.

Maybe hikers should take a cue from the hook-and-trigger crowd when they go to the woods. That is, be prepared to fend for yourself on the road as well as on the trail. Might not be a bad thing to have an axe and saw and stout rope or tow strap in your vehicle when using off-the-beaten-track trailheads like South Meadow, Upper Works, Coreys Road, etc..

That's excellent advice. I have a tow strap (and even a come-along winch) for those exact reasons.

 

[Rick]

What do you mean it really isn't their problem? Of course its not "their" problem. If I'm walking down the street and I see a house on fire, hmm should I call 911... well its not "my" problem.
-Shayne

Shayne - Not trying to be argumantative, and I can certainly understand your frustration at this, but there are levels of assistance and I think there is a big difference in calling 911 and running into a burning house to help put out a fire. I also don't think a log across a dead end road rises to the level of immediate attention as burning house.

I would NOT lend my chain saw to anyone nowadays. What if it kicked or binded and the chain broke and hurt someone - It is just too risky. You MIGHT know how to use one, but does a ADK maintenenace worker really want to bear that risk?

As far as the ADK, they probably had enough other issues that day on their property alone and offered to call it in. From another perspective what if it happened down the road from your employer - would you take your employers' tools and leave and drive a few miles away to help someone unknown to you? Would you hand over your employers chain saws, jacks or tools to a complete stranger? Do you think your employer might discipline or fire you? Maybe not yours, but I bet many would receive some sort of action.

With that said, there is also probably no love lost between the ADK and what they see as those who avoid parking fees by parking on South Meadow Roads. It may not be as much as an issue now, but do you remember the early and mid 90's before the town banned parking, how many folks parked along roads to avoid fees. (of course, there are those that truly want to hike the road into Marcy Dam).

As far as leaving a "credit card for insurance" do you actually mean "assurance" as in one would return the saw, or for insurance in the event someone got injured and sued the ADK?

FWIW, I will now stick my old backpacking Sven Saw in the back of my truck with my tools in case it ever happens to me !!!

 

[Rick]

After reading the Vandalism thread, to Nonlegit's point, I'll also keep some duct tape and plastic in my truck as well.

 

[spaddock]

but there are levels of assistance and I think there is a big difference in calling 911 and running into a burning house to help put out a fire. I also don't think a log across a dead end road rises to the level of immediate attention as burning house.

As far as the ADK, they probably had enough other issues that day on their property alone and offered to call it in. From another perspective what if it happened down the road from your employer - would you take your employers' tools and leave and drive a few miles away to help someone unknown to you? Would you hand over your employers chain saws, jacks or tools to a complete stranger? Do you think your employer might discipline or fire you? Maybe not yours, but I bet many would receive some sort of action.

I agree burning house is an extreme example, first thing that came to my head.

If the ADK had other issues I'm not sure why there were 3 maintenance workers in the Loj (what I was told).

Yes I would leave my employers place and take whatever, if I broke it I'd pay for it. It's only money, to me helping people comes first. I work in high tech so it's hard to imagine that situation. I can also understand if people couldn't afford to replace the equipment.

Reminds me of an incident that happened in Alberta, a pizza delivery woman skipped a delivery to help someone who was shot or stabbed (don't remember which). The pizza place fired her and it caused a huge backlash against the joint. Again, being fatally wounded is a totally different story, but what you said reminded me of that.

I've definitely learned from this experience. There is no Loj to hike to on the Upper Works road. I'm not sure a tow strap would have worked, the lever was a great idea. I'm really glad I was hiking with two engineers that weekend, one of them being a hefty rugby player.

The crappy thing in all of this is that I was on my way to the Loj to pickup some ADK stickers for my roof box and was really thinking about getting an ADK membership for the year. After that I just didn't feel like it.


-Shayne

 

[spaddock]

With that said, there is also probably no love lost between the ADK and what they see as those who avoid parking fees by parking on South Meadow Roads.

As far as leaving a "credit card for insurance" do you actually mean "assurance" as in one would return the saw, or for insurance in the event someone got injured and sued the ADK?

I wasn't parked there just to avoid parking fees. I really like finishing up on a road. By the time I'm finished a hike I'm usually exhausted and when I hit the road I feel like I'm home free.

I guess I meant assurance. This whole thing about suing the ADK just makes me shake my head in disgust. I know it happens everyday, especially in the U.S but I can't help but think, do people really want to live in fear?


-Shayne

 

[Peakbagr]

Shayne,

In the USA, an employee who injures his back helping pull your car, or gets hit by a car while he's helping you ends up getting worker's compensation insurance, and ADK either loses its WC insurance or the premiums go way up.
The employee lends you a chain saw and the saw kicks back and re-arranges your face, and ADK ends up in a liability lawsuit (see above).
The employee give you a tow and someone attaches the chain to the wrong spot on your car, guess who's insurance is going to pay (see above).

The ADK's insurance premiums are a huge part of the club's operating expenses and a necessity in order to keep the Loj, Headquarters, JBL, and O'brien Camp all running in addition to the 2 trails crew plus all of its maps, guidebooks, ready and available for you.

What you were told about insurance was not an excuse. Its the ADK's employees following instructions so the club will be around for another 75 years.

 

[Remix]

In all fairness, we have had an ice storm in Connecticut that left blow downs on 45 mph highways for 2 days. Judging by the cars parked along Rt 219, the residents had to walk to their homes, or had elected not to take "the long way around" the fallen tree.

I guess its a good idea to bring some sort of saw in the trunk, and !always! inspect the trees near your tent...

 

[Peakbagr]

Schlimmer hit the nail right on the head as respects liability.

A few years ago, ADK spent a few years and countless internal person hours defending against a $50M (thats $50million) suit. The reason, 2 joes showed up at the Loj mid day. Rented some snowshoes and set out for Marcy with 1 tiny day pack, 2 PBJ sandwiches, a couple of cans of beer and a joint between them. They ran into a strong winter mountaineering party that had just left the Marcy summit and strongly cautioned them about continuing.
The treeline condition was a white-out with almost hurricane winds and zero visibility, snow and ice. They left their meager equipment at the tree line, got lost in the blizzard conditions on the summit, and went down the wrong way. One nite spent half way down Panther Gorge burning money and papers to try and stay warm, the next night in a broken-into cabin on the Upper Ausable Lake before being rescued with severe frostbite.

The upshot: lawsuit because ADK:
1. Should have noticed that they didn't return.
2. That somehow ADK should have known when they planned to return and didn't notify the authorities that their car was still in the Loj lot.
3. That ADK should have warned them about conditions up high.
4. That ADK should have instituted a search more quickly.

ADK fought settlement offers at at every stage, and donated hundreds of hours taking statements. The upshot, the NYS Supreme Court threw out the suit, but ADK's insurance carrier was tagged with $120K in defense costs( not counting the ten's of thousands that the Club spent) and a big problem when the insurance came up for renewal.

Lend a chainsaw to a stranger? Go out on a public road and help? Not if they want to keep their jobs.

 

[spaddock]

Lend a chainsaw to a stranger? Go out on a public road and help? Not if they want to keep their jobs.

Makes me so proud to be a human being. Don't help your fellow man because you might get sued. Lovely, just lovely.

I think I'll go to McDonalds and spill hot coffee all over me. I could use the cash.


-Shayne

 

[Peakbagr]

I don't think anyone who's posted stated they like the lawsuit climate, but it is what it is here in the USA.
There are good samaritan laws which protect me if I stop to help you. Its another matter completely for an employee of an organization which doesn't enjoy that protection to put the assets of the organization at risk.

 

[Neil]

I think I'll go to McDonalds and spill hot coffee all over me. I could use the cash.


-Shayne

There's a bumper sticker that says,''Hit me. I need the money!''
Shayne, I believe an OBY-GYN shells out a hundred G's a year in malpractice insurance south of the border. In Canada order is maintained by too much governement. Is it possible that order is maintained in the USA by too many lawsuits? As for blowdown we saw a truly humungous tree that had fallen across our trail between the time we headed out and came back. What a blow that was!


Note to the moderator: If this post is deemed too political and gets the ole' zaparoo I won't start a thumbs down thread, I promise

 

[Paul Skelly]

The American People, courts, lawyers, and insurance companies have basically decided that society bears less burden if you and your party are delayed 24-48 hours by a blocked road then if you cut your leg off with a borrowed chain saw and lived off of social programs for the rest of your life. Spaddock, you were inconvenienced, but the reasons why are directly related to the extraordinary productivity of the United States. Three cheers to the ADK for managing their exposure to risk.

 

[spaddock]

The American People, courts, lawyers, and insurance companies have basically decided that society bears less burden if you and your party are delayed 24-48 hours by a blocked road then if you cut your leg off with a borrowed chain saw and lived off of social programs for the rest of your life. Spaddock, you were inconvenienced, but the reasons why are directly related to the extraordinary productivity of the United States. Three cheers to the ADK for managing their exposure to risk.

I didn't see any sarcastic smiley's and since I don't know you I have to assume you're serious.

What ever happened to people taking responsibility for there own actions? The lawsuit that revolved around two bonehead hikers was ridiculous. The legal system should have never allowed it to escalate to 120K. If I walk off of Marcy can I sue because there was no guard rail? If I get stuck in the mud hiking the Santanoni's can I sue because there were no warning signs?

Fine, I'm willing to say the ADK did the right thing under the circumstances but those circumstances stink. The fact a good samaritan law even has to exist is pitiful.

As for the productivity point, I hope you enjoy your soap box.

-Shayne

 

[Mountainhound]

as a logger who uses a chainsaw everyday. i will say good for ADK for not lending out a saw that someone can kill themselfs with. as for liability issues it would seem no people cant take responibility for there own actions. thank all the lawerys who are more than willing to take cases like the dumb broad (no offense ladies) who burnt her mouth on hot coffee (isn't coffee supposed to be hot ). if you dont like to be inconveinced be prepared.