Choosing BC Skis

[DougPaul]

If I lock the heel in in place with the cables ... I will then no longer be able to do a telemark turn and instead so some kind of regular alpine turn?

To be absolutely certain of what you mean here:
* Most (traditional, ie not NTN) Telemark bindings are cable bindings with loose heels.
* Locking the heel down to the ski, strictly speaking, has nothing to do with the cable**. This makes Telemark turns impossible because they require one to lift the heel of the back (inside of the turn) foot off the ski. See http://faculty.washington.edu/mtuggy/video5.mpg for an example and pay particular attention to the heel of the back foot.

** There are both cable and non-cable bindings with locked or lockable heels.


Note that it is perfectly possible to perform a loose-heel parallel turn on Tele skis (or any ski with a loose heel binding). The heel is pressed down on the ski during the turn, but not locked. This is an important turn (particularly on hard surfaces) and should be learned by all Tele skiers. See "Free-Heel Skiing: Telemark and Parallel Techniques for All Conditions" by Paul Parker. http://www.amazon.com/Free-Heel-Ski...eers/dp/0898867754/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books (The "Bible" of loose heel skiing... I highly recommend that you get a copy.) FWIW, my loose heel parallel is my safety turn when Tele skiing the groomers at downhill areas--I can also ski harder terrain using it than I can with my parallel turn. (OK, maybe I just need to learn to do a better Tele on hardpack... )

BTW, I learned the fine points of my loose heel parallel from "Breakthrough On Skis: How to Get Out of the Intermediate Rut" by Lito Tejada-Flores. http://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-...iate/dp/0679750819/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books (Get this edition--not the later ones.) While Tejada-Flores aims this book at downhillers with locked bindings, the instructions apply well to loose-heel skis as well. (He basically has the reader go back to the beginning and start with the basics (snowplow, stem christie, etc) and builds the reader up to a good parallel turn with good habits at each stage. Testimonial: It worked for me to the point that I can ski black diamonds at downhill areas with my heavy Tele gear. And I can perform both Tele and parallel turns on my BC gear in the right snow conditions.

Doug

 

[TCD]

(posted at the same time as DougPaul)

Just some clarification. Early telemark setups, such as the simple original 3 pin, only attached to the toe of the boot. The duckbill on the front of the boot was engaged in some kind of clamp; the three pins kept the duckbill from slipping out. The set up relied on the torsional and axial stiffness of the boot to keep the ski stable, and on the bending stifness of the boot to apply pressure to the front of the ski.

As boots and skis eveloved and became heavier and stiffer, a more substantial interface was necessary. "Cable" bindings were introduced. The cable goes around the heel of the boot. It does not "lock the heel in place" or lock the heel down to the ski. What it does is force the boot more securely into the toe piece. Also, depending on the design, the cable is stretched when the boot is bent. This increases the force that can be applied to the ski, because the tensile resistance of the cable is added to the bending stiffness of the boot. The cable also increases the "side to side" stability of the boot.

The voile "3 pin cable" was designed to offer both attachment mechanisms, depending on the condition of the boot, user preference, and how much stiffness was desired. (It also offered redundancy, in the event of torn out inholes or a broken cable).

Where some confusion may be coming from is that there were, in the 50s and 60s, "cable bindings" used for regular alpine (not telemark) skiing. These cables did, in fact, lock the heel down to the ski, by virtue of the cable passing through cable stays near the heel of the boot. But these bindings have nothing to do with telemark, or with modern telemark cable bindings.

You certainly cannot make a telemark turn with your heels locked down. But one of the nice things about modern tele equipment is that you can make alpine turns just about as well as you can with alpine gear, once you practice.

Most alpine ski areas offer tele demo days, tele fests, etc.

Have fun!

 

[skiguy]

To be absolutely certain of what you mean here:
* Most (traditional, ie not NTN) Telemark bindings are cable bindings with loose heels.
* Locking the heel down to the ski, strictly speaking, has nothing to do with the cable**. This makes Telemark turns impossible because they require one to lift the heel of the back (inside of the turn) foot off the ski. See http://faculty.washington.edu/mtuggy/video5.mpg for an example and pay particular attention to the heel of the back foot.

** There are both cable and non-cable bindings with locked or lockable heels.


Note that it is perfectly possible to perform a loose-heel parallel turn on Tele skis (or any ski with a loose heel binding). The heel is pressed down on the ski during the turn, but not locked. This is an important turn (particularly on hard surfaces) and should be learned by all Tele skiers. See "Free-Heel Skiing: Telemark and Parallel Techniques for All Conditions" by Paul Parker. http://www.amazon.com/Free-Heel-Ski...eers/dp/0898867754/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books (The "Bible" of loose heel skiing... I highly recommend that you get a copy.) FWIW, my loose heel parallel is my safety turn when Tele skiing the groomers at downhill areas--I can also ski harder terrain using it than I can with my parallel turn. (OK, maybe I just need to learn to do a better Tele on hardpack... )

BTW, I learned the fine points of my loose heel parallel from "Breakthrough On Skis: How to Get Out of the Intermediate Rut" by Lito Tejada-Flores. http://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-...iate/dp/0679750819/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books (Get this edition--not the later ones.) While Tejada-Flores aims this book at downhillers with locked bindings, the instructions apply well to loose-heel skis as well. (He basically has the reader go back to the beginning and start with the basics (snowplow, stem christie, etc) and builds the reader up to a good parallel turn with good habits at each stage. Testimonial: It worked for me to the point that I can ski black diamonds at downhill areas with my heavy Tele gear. And I can perform both Tele and parallel turns on my BC gear in the right snow conditions.

Doug

So when is the "On Snow Clinic" aka "Bakeoff"? You could do some Waxing Demos too...I'll bring the Video camera.

 

[Brambor]

Thanks TCD

When I was about 8 years old I received these wooden ski's...(that was while growing up in the Czech Republic cca around 1973) and they had exactly the same cable latch under the heel. That was the last time I had telemark bindings on skis. The skis did not have metal edges. I remember trudging through the woods behind our house with friends and having a great time.

A couple years later while the mean$ were limited I actually remember taking the bindings off and taking stiff hiking boots and drilling them directly to the ski. Walking up to a ski slope in sneakers and putting the skis on at the lift.

 

[DougPaul]

That is funny. I never even considered this to be possible with telemark bindings. For some reason I assumed that in order to use 3-pin equipment I would have to learn a telemark turn. I do not object to learning a telemark turn at all but this sure makes me more confident to take these skis down hill because I can ski.

Why then are there some telemark ski's and bindings that seem to be mainly used at downhill ski resots when they could use Alpine skis instead? If we eliminate the telemark turn and the desire to climb uphill what other pleasure is there in using the tele skis over alpine skis?

Hmm, I see that I missed a whole discussion while composing my previous post...

Strictly speaking you can perform Tele turns with any loose-heel binding--3-pin is only one class of loose-heel binding. (Pragmatically, some designs of loose-heel bindings may be too weak or flimsy for practical Tele skiing.) You can also perform snowplow turns (the basic turn taught to beginners of any kind of ski), stem-christie turns, and parallel (full christie) turns on loose-heel gear. (And there are a bunch of other turns, but those are the basics.)

The Tele gear that you see at downhill areas is what I like to call heavy-Tele gear--heavy duty Tele bindings on heavy duty skis with big heavy plastic boots. (You could mount a downhill binding on such a ski and use it as a downhill ski if you wished.) This gear is designed primarily for turns on steep terrain. (BC gear is often somewhere between heavy-duty Tele and XC.)

There is a third class of gear in addition to downhill and Tele--alpine touring (AT, also known as Randonee). AT uses a locked heel binding with a releasable lock for ascent with skins to provide traction. You cannot ski when the heel is unlocked--it is only for approach and ascent. So you, in effect, use AT skis as snowshoes on the ascent and as a downhill skis on the descent.

Tele and AT skis are often used in the backcountry, downhill skis are limited to areas where there is another method of ascending (ie lifts or hiking on snowshoes etc).

Doug

 

[mirabela]

Wow, quite a convo emerging here! Saturday I took my army skis out into the puckerbrush and yo-yoed a series of 2 - 300 foot shots in the deep powder & hardwoods on a nearby hill. Yesterday I went over to Stowe with my daughter (we had a pair of free vouchers, yay us!) and skied 11,000' vertical on the groomers. It was a lot of fun ... there are certainly lots of better skis around, but this stuff is no worse than the rentals I was skiing on in the 80's ...

 

[David Metsky]

It was a lot of fun ... there are certainly lots of better skis around, but this stuff is no worse than the rentals I was skiing on in the 80's ...

That may be, but I don't use my 60/40 shell or my mouse boots from back then either. Hey, as long as you're having fun I'm 100% behind it. My experience from teaching people how to telemark is that the learning curve on modern gear is much steeper and the skiers enjoy it much more.

 

[Elizabeth]

Interesting post Elizabeth IMO spot on observations. Sounds as if you have a pair of the Karhu Kodiaks. One of my alltime favorites. I bet the people with the shorter skis and cables were wishing they had your skis on the flats and rolling terrain which there is a heck of alot more of than that one glade. Great example of tradeoffs which happen on almost every tour here in the East. Pick your line then pick your ski and estrapulate your ability.

Thanks. Yes, they are the Kodiaks. They have served me very well for many years. And you are right that on the flats they were better than the telemark skis. Twenty-five years ago on the Catamount Trail (~300 miles) I alternated between the Kodiaks and a pair of shorter, wooden child's skis (Bonnas). Those old woodies handled the terrain very well and I wish I still had them. One problem with modern gear is that it is so specialized that you are always feeling as if you are making a tradeoff unless you have the exact right thing for the conditions.

 

[Chip]

There is a third class of gear in addition to downhill and Tele--alpine touring (AT, also known as Randonee). AT uses a locked heel binding with a releasable lock for ascent with skins to provide traction. You cannot ski when the heel is unlocked--it is only for approach and ascent. So you, in effect, use AT skis as snowshoes on the ascent and as a downhill skis on the descent.
Doug

Just a minor point: You can ski downhill in AT/Randonee gear with the heal unlocked; There is still a lot of stiffness in the binding that allows for near parallel turns or certainly snowplows and modified stem christies. So if you are on rolling terrain there's no need to constantly lock and unlock the heal. I wouldn't leave the heal unlocked for extended downhill or for all day at a ski resort, though.

Having said that: At some point I'll invest in and learn how to use Telemark gear.

 

[skiguy]

. One problem with modern gear is that it is so specialized that you are always feeling as if you are making a tradeoff unless you have the exact right thing for the conditions.

Using older gear or let us call it more traditional does have its merits IMO as far as having the capability of performing all around the BC spectrum. Although IMO it requires accomplished all around skiing skills. Most of us in general can always improve their skiing skills which inherently makes the sport fun also. In the modern age of skiing with all its plethora of gear I think it is easy to be blinded by needing to have better gear to be a better skier. The traditional gear is not as forgiving and therefore forces one to ski with better technique. In the big picture therefore I have always tried to focus on technique first and then gear.

 

[DougPaul]

Just a minor point: You can ski downhill in AT/Randonee gear with the heal unlocked; There is still a lot of stiffness in the binding that allows for near parallel turns or certainly snowplows and modified stem christies. So if you are on rolling terrain there's no need to constantly lock and unlock the heal. I wouldn't leave the heal unlocked for extended downhill or for all day at a ski resort, though.

While I'm sure it is possible, from what I understand, one risks damaging the hinge if one skis with the heel unlocked. The hinge is simply not designed to take the stresses if the heel is loose. (I have an AT rig, but I haven't used it yet. I certainly wouldn't want to ski on it with the heel loose.)

<meta comment>
Anyhow, I was just trying to lay out the full range of skiing gear for the questioners as general background rather than all the fine points of the previously unmentioned sections of the range.
</meta comment>

Having said that: At some point I'll invest in and learn how to use Telemark gear.

I suspect that you will find it enjoyable--if you have BC or trad XC experience, it can be viewed as extra-heavy-duty BC or XC gear. Learning the Tele turn can be fun and challenging. And you can put XC wax on Tele skis for those rolling hills.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks. Yes, they are the Kodiaks. They have served me very well for many years. And you are right that on the flats they were better than the telemark skis. Twenty-five years ago on the Catamount Trail (~300 miles) I alternated between the Kodiaks and a pair of shorter, wooden child's skis (Bonnas). Those old woodies handled the terrain very well and I wish I still had them.

I still have my first skis--wood Bonna 2000s (a medium weight BC ski) purchased ~1975 and skied both track and BC with them. Haven't used them in a while, though...

One problem with modern gear is that it is so specialized that you are always feeling as if you are making a tradeoff unless you have the exact right thing for the conditions.

I think that is in part just perception and maybe some selective memory. All skis involve design trade-offs and we are simply more aware of them due to the variety of available gear. One can still get a medium weight BC ski and use it on tracks, in the BC, and on groomed slopes. (I have done so with my Tua Escapes.) As skiguy noted, it may take a bit more skill to use the skis out near the edges of their envelopes--I have read a number of tales of XC racers taking their XC racing skis out on black diamonds and freaking out the downhillers...

Besides, think of how much you are helping out the economy by buying all those extra pairs of skis (and boots and skins etc)...

Doug

 

[cushetunk]

Whoa, there is way too much over-thinking and nostalgia going on in this thread.

Let's establish a simple set of recommendations for people new to backcountry skis, based on gear widely used in the last decade, divided into three scenarios:

1) You are absolutely certain you just want to backcountry tour on the flats and very gently rolling hills: Buy a light, metal-edged ski in the 65-75 mm tip width. Boots are probably leather and bindings are 3-Pin or NNN-BC. Go with waxless, unless you want to learn two new hobbies at once.

2) You are absolutely certain that you just want to make turns, turns, and more turns: Buy downhill skis, plastic boots, telemark or AT bindings, skins and kneepads. (Suggested: find a different website for info on this.)

3) Unsure about goals: Buy a waxless (yes, waxless) ski in the 90-70-80 mm dimension range, light plastic boot, and 3-Pin cable binding. Skins optional. Using this set-up for a year or three will do most everything you want and also show you where your true interests lie, whereupon you can either continue to ski these for everything (thereby developing textbook technique over many decades) or buy a second set of skis that will be more fun for the preferred task of either turning or touring.

Any questions?

 

[skiguy]

Whoa, there is way too much over-thinking and nostalgia going on in this thread.

Maybe.... but we are having fun. It's what most ski addicted nerds like myself like to do.....overanalyze

 

[mirabela]

Zoom. Swish.

That's what it's all about.

Zoom. Swish.

 

[Brambor]

yep

It's not the best thing but it sure makes us feel good when we're stuck at home or at work. TGIFtomorrow, nordic races saturday and possible Sunday's snowshoe trip up Firewardens Trail of Pleasant mountain and skiing it down.

Maybe.... but we are having fun. It's what most ski addicted nerds like myself like to do.....overanalyze

 

[spencer]

1) You are absolutely certain you just want to backcountry tour on the flats...
2) You are absolutely certain that you just want to make turns...
3) Unsure about goals: Buy a waxless (yes, waxless) ski in the 90-70-80 mm ...

cushetunk makes it sound like you have to choose one option... hogwash! You just have to decide which is first. Remember when you told your spouse that you only needed to buy one really good sleeping bag b/c it would last a lifetime...and then you realized you needed a warmer one? and a warmer one? and then a really lightweight one? and then the first one wore out? Yeah, skis are like that only worse.

 

[cushetunk]

cushetunk makes it sound like you have to choose one option... hogwash! You just have to decide which is first. Remember when you told your spouse that you only needed to buy one really good sleeping bag b/c it would last a lifetime...and then you realized you needed a warmer one? and a warmer one? and then a really lightweight one? and then the first one wore out? Yeah, skis are like that only worse.

^^^^^ Yes.

I need a money tree.