Courtesy to hunters

[pudgy_groundhog]

I climbed the Blackhead Range today. I saw a couple of hunters at the trailhead, but didn't see any once I got in the woods. I could hear gunshots in the distance.
Hunters are not likely to go very far into the forest or climb very far up. I don't think deer season has started yet in NY.

Hey Rivet. I think we saw the same hunters. We did a loop over Windham yesterday and when we parked at the end of Big Hollow Road we saw a few hunters. For some reason I thought deer rifle season wasn't until after this weekend, but somewhere above it said muzzle loading began? Not sure what each thing is ... We had forgotten our orange vests and were a little nervous when we pulled up and saw hunters, but hiked anyway (and did hear gunshots). Thought the same thing that a hunter wouldn't be too far up the trail as they would have to drag a deer back. With all the deer you see along the road, in people's yards, on golf courses, why even bother going in to the woods.

 

[Holdstrong]

Suggesting that the other guy somehow is getting greater “consideration” than you receive because you have such choices to make is to torture reason.

G.

When you have to make choices that are dictated by the other "guy" and what that "guy" happens to be doing.... then yes, that "guy" is getting more consideration than you. That is not torturing reason.... that is reason 101.

Analogy time (to simplify):

You show up at a softball field intent on playing a little ball. When you get there you notice someone riding a 4-wheeler around the bases. Now you can go ahead and play anyway because you have a right to do so - but you take the risk of getting hit by the 4-wheeler and injured by that other activity. You can also go out and purchase a cheap piece of equipment that 'might' help you not get hit, or you can go find another softball field, or you can just go home and bag the whole idea to begin with.

The 4-wheeler need do nothing. The occasional and consientious 4-wheeler might bag his plans to ride the bases if he sees you there first, but just like you he doesnt have to do this, and if he chooses not to, then we are back to the above paragraph.

Who in this scenario is getting more consideration? Of course it is the 4-wheeler.

And I don't even care that they get more consideration this time of year... no Rivet this is not just to rile people up.... If you read the entire thread instead of just my last post you would know that what I do care about is this silly attitude that we are somehow "sharing" the land. I care about these posts that make me feel like I'm returning some favor or concession or consideration to the hunters. What pray tell is it that I am returning? I'd love to hear what I am getting out of this relationship. I care about this point of view that seems to state that the courtesy I am extending was somehow required, or mandatory under some unwritten law of civility.

No, sorry, I am doing you the favor... and I am doing it because of the very nature of your sport... because if I dont do it, I may wind up with a chunk of metal in my backside. This is my courtesy to you, enjoy it... But if you make feel like it was my obligation as part of some equal partnership of the woods, I will resent it, because it is not an equal partnership.

Anyway, this is a dead point that is either lost on people or disagreed with. (the latter I can handle, the former is annoying) - and since I seem to be the only one who sees it, and since it isn't even that meaningful of a point to begin with, I'll let it go... again.

Happy hiking

 

[ripple]

Holdstrong.....
I think the issue you have is just a personal issue. I don't believe anyone posted agreeing w/ you. Your little softballfield analogy doesn't hold water. It is just a matter of sharing, share the woods they aren't yours. I think your argument is pathetic. Just b/c you are not getting anything out of the deal. Did your mommy teach you to share? When swimming I have to share the lake w/ boaters. Oh no how terrible I have to stay in this roped off area to swim, what am I getting out of the deal by letting boaters have all that space to boat. The lake isn't mine and people enjoy different things, so let it be. Seems selfish to get all huffy puffy, b/c you think you are getting the short end of the stick.

 

[Rick]

I'm sorry Holdstrong, but I fail to see the analogy. Since it is very likely to be illegal to use a motorized vehicle on most local parks, playgrounds, ballfields and school game areas, I don't really think it is a proper matchup and if they were rippin' round the bases, I'd probably call the local police.

Can we change the analogy to kids flying kites or playing soccer or whatever else would be a LEGAL and RECOGNIZABLE activity in a park.
It then leaves you with a choice - You can walk over nicely and ask them if they can move over some and share the space with you and I think most would be curteous and oblige or if you think whatever you say otr how you say it would cause a confrontation, you can head somewhere else and enjoy your day. Think about it, is that the worst thing that can happen to you???

It seems you are making this into an "all or nothing situation" and when that happens, I think everybody feels loss.

 

[AlpineSummit]

I've never changed or bagged a hike because hunters are out there - not once. And why should I? They are not gonna shoot me and I know it and I'm also not hindering their day to hunt either.

This is a dual-usage situation and we both win - we're both out in the woods doing our own thing. These are pretty darn big patches of woods to play in - there's room for everyone out there.

 

[Holdstrong]

Holdstrong.....
. . . Seems selfish to get all huffy puffy, b/c you think you are getting the short end of the stick.

I am not huffy puffy because hikers get the short end of the stick... I am huffy puffy because people are acting like we don't - when we do. I've said several times that I am actually fine with it - just dont give me this line about "sharing" - because that is not what is going on.

Your swim analogy is actually a perfect example of the differences between the way I seem to view "sharing", and some of you seem to view "sharing". If you get a 20 square foot roped off section of an entire lake to swim in.... and you think that is "sharing".... Then my friend, your mom pulled one over on you when she taught you what "sharing" was.

 

[ripple]

and since I seem to be the only one who sees it,
Happy hiking

Since you are the only one who sees it maybe it does not exist. Like people who here voices. Maybe you are spoiled and want to have everything for yourself. Maybe you just don't realize sharing is not always 50/50. It is a few months out of the year. Hunters help keep land around for you and me. Just get over it and enjoy your hike.

 

[Holdstrong]

I'm sorry Holdstrong, but I fail to see the analogy. Since it is very likely to be illegal to use a motorized vehicle on most local parks, playgrounds, ballfields and school game areas. . .

I cooked up an exagerrated situation just to drive home the point.... but fair enough - you can use a real life scenario for an analogy but one of the activities has to potentially endanger people doing the other (Soccer and kite flying don't quite fit the bill). In addition, because of that potential danger, the one group is forced to make concessions and choices that the other group simply does not have to make.

you can head somewhere else and enjoy your day. Think about it, is that the worst thing that can happen to you???

Nope and I've said several times that it is not, and that I understand it. But heading somewhere else and enjoying your day somewhere else is not "sharing" that field... you have conceeded it to whomever.... you were the courteous one.... you did the favor..... you yielded.......

(I guess I cant help myself)

 

[Waumbek]

Just for the record, I have bagged hikes because of hunters. Last time was in the Randolph hills during bear season. I just didn't want to hear all the guns as solitude and quiet are important to me on hikes. I now go to Maine on Sundays in NH rifle deer season to hike or hike steep straight-up trails at home in Franconia. This is my choice, of course, and it's not really the issue here. I think the concept of "multi-use," which prevails widely in WMNF and NH state parks, is at the center of things. So far as I understand it, "multi-use" is not really meant to be an ethos of "sharing" as we're defining it here. "Multi-use" just says that such and such groups all legally get to use an area, and it's up to the groups to figure out on their own how to do that within the limits of the law. Multi-use will naturally tend to favor the person driving the machine over the person walking or skiing, the person wielding the potentially deadly firearm over the unarmed person, and so forth, but the concept of "multi-use" doesn't address how to work out any possible inequities that may effectively undermine it. At least that's my understanding of "multi-use" but maybe someone who knows wilderness law can explain further. So I wouldn't romanticize "multi-use," and it would also be a big job to change it. Which brings me back to Maine, which actually dictates a Sunday ban on hunting throughout the year. I think this ban started out as a "blue law" rather than as any recognition of inequities in "multi-use" but wherever it came from, it seems firmly in place and I appreciate it and take advantage of it.

 

[Holdstrong]

Since you are the only one who sees it maybe it does not exist. Like people who here voices.

No, I am not the only one who sees it. Read the post. What I said was that a lot of people see my point, they just disagree with it. And yes there are some who seem incapable of seeing it. Shockingly, I think you may have just agreed with my point (read below), yet you still dont see it. That's a new one.

Maybe you just don't realize sharing is not always 50/50.

So, are you saying that we are in fact not sharing the woods with hunters 50/50 during these weeks?

Because that is my point - you can still call it "sharing" if you want, I'll give you that for the sake of argument - but one group is giving more, and the other is getting more. It is we as hikers who are conceeding more than "50", and it is we as hikers who are being courtous about this fact.

There is nothing wrong with this, I just don't like it when people make it seem like it is 50/50.... or make me feel like by giving more than "50" that I am somehow simply doing what is obligated of me under some rule of civility. We hikers are being damn understanding and courteous during these weeks, we are making choices with you hunters in mind, and we are yielding the land to you in a lot of situation.... and I think it is important to point that out and not let anyone try to diminsh it.

I really hope you hunters appreciate the efforts hikers put forth during this time period more than you are letting on here in this thread. Because when you make it seem like we are just doing what is expected of us, you are missing the point.

 

[Holdstrong]

Multi-use will naturally tend to favor the person driving the machine over the person walking or skiing, the person wielding the potentially deadly firearm over the unarmed person, and so forth. . .

That is really all I have been saying.

 

[ripple]

I hope "you hikers" appreciate the efforts "we hunters" put into land conservation etc etc. I am done with this. OH no you have to wear orange for a few weeks. I would like to think you would have more important things to worry about then to sit here saying you are getting the short end of the stick. In the remote chance that you are getting the short end, it is a really big stick enjoy what you have and thank everybody, the hunters, x country skiers, hikers, snowomobilers and all the other groups that fight to keep the land for all of us to use. So really stop acting like a spoiled child grow up and go for a hike.

 

[ripple]

Because when you make it seem like we are just doing what is expected of us.

You know when I cross the street I look both ways, not because it is expected from the oncoming cars but I do it for my own safety.

 

[Holdstrong]

I hope "you hikers" appreciate the efforts "we hunters" put into land conservation etc etc. I am done with this. OH no you have to wear orange for a few weeks. I would like to think you would have more important things to worry about then to sit here saying you are getting the short end of the stick. In the remote chance that you are getting the short end, it is a really big stick enjoy what you have and thank everybody, the hunters, x country skiers, hikers, snowomobilers and all the other groups that fight to keep the land for all of us to use. So really stop acting like a spoiled child grow up and go for a hike.

LOL - melt down

Hikers put time into land conservation too - so this seems like a silly point to make. Of course I appreciate the efforts of anyone who works toward land conservation. Hmmm, not sure why you are so upset over me pointing out to you that hikers are the ones making concession to hunters this time of year. I have never, not once, said this was a bad thing..... or that it shouldnt occur.... but your very attitude is indicative of what I am talking about. It is your poor attitude that I am rejecting - this "take for granted" attitude of obligation as if we somehow OWE it to you to make these concessions. We dont... we do so because we are being courteous to you. You could return the favor by acknowledging it, appreciating it, and not acting as if it is your birth right.

And I am glad that you look both ways when you cross the street.

 

[ripple]

LOL - melt down

intelligent reply!!!!

 

[hilldog]

Ive personally never been hunting but have no moral or any other objections to the sport. (and if we can call golf or bowling etc, or even hiking, a sport then I see no reason not to call hunting a sport). I also have no problem with hiking during hunting season provided its legal to do so...I would however wear orange without any resentment....just as if I'm running or cycling in the morning or evening while its dark out I would wear orange to be visible to drivers. Should I feel resentful that I might need to be more visible to drivers while we are 'sharing' the roads?

 

[lumberzac]

Big Game season in the Adirondacks (including regular, muzzle loading, and archery seasons) = 77 days a year.

Days without big game hunting = 288 days a year.

You're right it isn't 50/50

 

[ripple]

Well I think your attitude of "poor me" is pathetic. By the way I don't hunt. No time to w/ peaks to bag.

""take for granted" attitude of obligation as if we somehow OWE it to you to make these concessions."


Hikers doen't owe it to hunters to be safe, they owe it to themselves. What is it you want some special recognition, maybe a plague b/c you wear orange during hunting season, or maybe avoid a place b/c it is hunting season. Well if the hunters will allow me to speak for them. THank you holdstrong for being such a super person! There you go. happy?


Done w/ the silly back and forth. Have a great hike.

 

[Rivet]

Hey Rivet. I think we saw the same hunters. We did a loop over Windham yesterday and when we parked at the end of Big Hollow Road we saw a few hunters.

Quite possible. I started from the same lot at around 9:15am. I wasn't too worried about hunters once I reached the ridge.

Saw a couple of dogs on the trail not on a leash (oh, the horror ). One of them had an orange vest on. Cute.

 

[pudgy_groundhog]

Holdstrong, I think people get your point, they just don't agree with it. I find it somewhat of an inconvenience to have to worry about where I hike this time of year, but in the end I don't really care because I have options and it is only a few weeks. To me, there is no point getting upset about it because it won't change anything (and to me it's not really worth getting upset about in the first place). I'm sorry if you truly believe you are getting the short end of the stick -- sometimes that's life. If you haven't learned life is not fair by now, you are in for a nasty surprise.

I am not huffy puffy because hikers get the short end of the stick... I am huffy puffy because people are acting like we don't - when we do.

Some people are acting like we don't get the short end of the stick because we truly don't we think we do. Just a matter of opinion.

Then my friend, your mom pulled one over on you when she taught you what "sharing" was.

And not to sound to snide, but perhaps your mom never taught you that people have different opinions.