Dry River Rescue - Deep Snow

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Having read the winter rescue reports for a few decades now, I think the USFS almost has to keep the Dry River, Great Gulf, and Lincoln Brook trails maintained and open.

Imagine if S&R had to go into one of those drainages to search for someone without an established trail.

For some reasons, you don't hear of many winter hikers ditching into the Wild River drainage.
 
In reading the reddit comments and replies, they do seem to have learned that planning a Spring trip down through Dry River was not researched well. It would be nice to know, what their research of this trip consisted of prior to the trip. This board and AMC's webpages are places to ask questions, however, has FB groups and Instagram pics become the norm. Do FB groups provide Q&A or are they and Instagram more of a "hey look where I went and what I did" forums?

I know it's easier to keep threads here on topic and not digress into ranting and twitter wars with keeping membership restricted, however, by limiting access, do we limit the novice from coming here and asking questions? Virtually all of us would have known a May trip down the Dry River Trail would be foolhardy, almost any year. Same could be said about a trip down Sphinx like young Mr. Mason did in 2009 in late April. Would any of us consider walking the entire length of the Link? We had a recent SAR trip when a trip was planned down Flume Slide a couple of weeks ago.

Are the Tripyramids so boring that no one has tried an early Spring Descent of the North Slide yet? Maybe it's a good thing few people visit the Great Gulf and try descending Six Husbands.

Is reading the WMG passé now? Is reading a lost art? We live in a world of the 7 second news cycle, does the new breed of hiker only have enough time to see how many likes a post or pic gets and search for hashtags like #adventure or #Epic before planning their next adventure?

I am glad this group and the due from MA got out okay. Do PLB's or other electronic devices make people complacent. When I started back in the 19__ _s:eek: , I read all I could because I thought I could get lost and die plus I do enjoy going solo. Is the new mantra, go and if bad things happen because I failed to plan, I'll just push the button? If so, people need to know that in bad weather SAR may NOT come and get you. When you call at home, Emergency Personal can reach you in minutes, outdoors, a quick response may reach you in hours.
 
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Mike P. said:
Do FB groups provide Q&A or are they and Instagram more of a "hey look where I went and what I did" forums?
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There is a lot of "Hey, look at me" photos, lazy questions (i.e. how far is Monadnock?) and bragging but there is also a lot of question and answer stuff too. Quality varies by group and you need to learn who is knowledgeable but the sheer volume of members in these groups generally leads to fast and accurate info on conditions. When you ask a question that gets few or no responses that is "information" in itself - maybe what you have planned is not typical or advisable and you should plan accordingly.

P.S. Not sure if you mean now or in general but I have done the entire Link and think sections of that trail are simply awesome and deserted. I frequently use sections of it to ascend the Presidentials on lesser traveled routes.
 
Mike P. said:
Is reading the WMG passé now? Is reading a lost art? We live in a world of the 7 second news cycle, does the new breed of hiker only have enough time to see how many likes a post or pic gets and search for hashtags like #adventure or #Epic before planning their next adventure?
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During my short tenure in the Facebook 4000 footer page(s), it appeared to me that many people considered advice from these forums as an adequate replacement for the WMG and maps. But this based solely on my cursory reading of their posts and may be in error. Neither the questions nor the answers were particularly detailed.

Tim
 
DayTrip said:
P.S. Not sure if you mean now or in general but I have done the entire Link and think sections of that trail are simply awesome and deserted. I frequently use sections of it to ascend the Presidentials on lesser traveled routes.
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As I understand it, some parts are great and it's in good shape and good for doing loops. I've never had a need to do the Jefferson end of it but recall It being labeled as a long sidehill exercise of endless root walking. Most complaints came on rainy days and wet angled roots are the ugliest surface for walking on outside of hard ice without traction.....
 
Mike P. said:
I know it's easier to keep threads here on topic and not digress into ranting and twitter wars with keeping membership restricted, however, by limiting access, do we limit the novice from coming here and asking questions?
Click to expand...

I was a seriously novice, know-nothing hiker when I emailed to join this forum (I didn't even know anyone to make a referral as indicated in guidelines so I had to plead my case) and I certainly drew a certain measure of contempt with my early questions and obvious lack of knowledge. But there were certainly a hefty number of members who gave me detailed and valuable advice that has allowed me to expand my knowledge and enjoyment in the mountains exponentially over the past 5-6 years. I wish I had known about such forums years ago. May have ignited my love of hiking years ago.

How many members here joined and got the same experience I did? No idea. It doesn't seem like there are many "newbies" on here based on the questions asked. It feels like more of a discussion forum for experts to share experiences and debate more philosophical topics more than knowledge on basic questions. It is also a very solid source of local news and knowledge from people who are clearly involved in their local communities. And the depth and breadth of knowledge on this forum is quite substantial. There literally seems to be someone on here who is an expert on virtually anything you ask.

Facebook forums to me also have these people (I'm sure some of which do double duty here as well - I have had questions answered from VFTT people on Facebook) but they certainly don't have that "expert" feel to them. Facebook groups tend to be more beginner oriented and encouraging to beginners to get out there, answer the same questions over and over, etc. Some of those groups are pretty solid and some are just arguing about dumb stuff all day. I am quite confident that if I had never joined VFTT and used only Facebook groups over the past 5-6 years my knowledge of gear, places and overall experience would be nowhere near what it is now. Hopefully there are new members joining VFTT and getting the kind of experience out of it that I did.
 
I would say many of us probably have similar starts Daytrip. Surely my November attempt (ha) at Flume Slide with rain and cotton was a learning experience as well as Stinging Nettles and Flannel on a hot and humid Memorial Day or old sneakers on the Saddle Trail on Katahdin.

Several of us could retire if we got a dollar for every Mt. Washington question we answered on when to go, what trail and a new hiker wanting to take his out of shape HS friends there before the reunion question.
 
DayTrip said:
How many members here joined and got the same experience I did? No idea. It doesn't seem like there are many "newbies" on here based on the questions asked. It feels like more of a discussion forum for experts to share experiences and debate more philosophical topics more than knowledge on basic questions. It is also a very solid source of local news and knowledge from people who are clearly involved in their local communities. And the depth and breadth of knowledge on this forum is quite substantial. There literally seems to be someone on here who is an expert on virtually anything you ask.
Click to expand...

The more things change, the more they stay the same. A very short history lesson on VFTT... members with longer standing than I will surely feel OK in correcting me if I am wrong.

In the beginning, there was Usenet / Usenet News / Usenet News Groups. A key feature of Usenet (News (Groups)) was that they were unmoderated. The signal-to-noise (see metaphorical usage comment) was often considered very low - too low for people who were fairly serious about their backcountry pursuits. VFTT (then, www.viewsfromthetop.com) was founded by Darren with the following statement (eventually evolving into the Terms of Service):

The forums on this website are moderated in an effort to stay focused and on topic. This tight moderation is what separates this site from other backcountry websites. This is a backcountry specific site developed for the sharing of backcountry information. It is not an AOL chat room.

There were other "forums" of sorts (the AMC had one, for example) with various levels of involvement and moderation. VFTT rose, ostensibly, to a leading authority on backcountry recreation. As popularity soared, so did the trolls and spammers. Because of the moderation, and to keep the signal-to-noise ration high, you had to be "referred". This requirement still exists, but the entry barrier is basically "ask and you shall receive" since spammers and trouble makers generally don't bother. There was also "the greenies" which, ostensibly, intended to indicate to newbies how reputable a poster was likely to be, but it soon proved to be a popularity contest where circles of people would pile them on to each other, and so that was dismissed. Trolling the moderators became a sport. Splinter forums evolved (one is defunct, another appears to exist, but has almost no signs of life.) Darren eventually got tired of running things, but still stayed involved (including personally paying the bills, some $6K over 10 years, by my estimations). He was highly unavailable and membership requests went unfulfilled for months at a time (he was often under water as a Navy sub contractor... not that he was a slacker.) When he bailed, he asked me to handle the admin role and Dave & Alan stuck around as moderators. Enter crowd funding. Exit greenies. Lots of unhappy members, many of them borderline trolls (or at least trolling for reputation points.)

Fast forward a few more years and as Facebook became wildly popular, VFTT usage faded. I think the somewhat deserved reputation of being elitist has faded somewhat, but it's not gone entirely. We three have tried to be as impartial as possible, but of course every moderator action annoys someone. Facebook groups exhibit a lot of the behaviors those early AMC and Usenet forums, except that most people have a real identity there and so there are some trappings of decorum. Facebook is really, really good at the things that most members want to see - trip reports, current information, and pictures. vBulletin is somewhat dated in its user interface and being generic does not excel at the picture sharing, nor at the fill-in-the-blanks trail conditions that newenglandtrailconditions.com provides. What's left is a lot of helpful historical information, and highly reliable answers about more obscure and/or historical subjects.

Anyway, this is off-topic for this thread, so I will stop here.

Tim
 
bikehikeskifish said:
The more things change, the more they stay the same. A very short history lesson on VFTT... members with longer standing than I will surely feel OK in correcting me if I am wrong.

In the beginning, there was Usenet / Usenet News / Usenet News Groups. A key feature of Usenet (News (Groups)) was that they were unmoderated. The signal-to-noise (see metaphorical usage comment) was often considered very low - too low for people who were fairly serious about their backcountry pursuits. VFTT (then, www.viewsfromthetop.com) was founded by Darren with the following statement (eventually evolving into the Terms of Service):

The forums on this website are moderated in an effort to stay focused and on topic. This tight moderation is what separates this site from other backcountry websites. This is a backcountry specific site developed for the sharing of backcountry information. It is not an AOL chat room.

There were other "forums" of sorts (the AMC had one, for example) with various levels of involvement and moderation. VFTT rose, ostensibly, to a leading authority on backcountry recreation. As popularity soared, so did the trolls and spammers. Because of the moderation, and to keep the signal-to-noise ration high, you had to be "referred". This requirement still exists, but the entry barrier is basically "ask and you shall receive" since spammers and trouble makers generally don't bother. There was also "the greenies" which, ostensibly, intended to indicate to newbies how reputable a poster was likely to be, but it soon proved to be a popularity contest where circles of people would pile them on to each other, and so that was dismissed. Trolling the moderators became a sport. Splinter forums evolved (one is defunct, another appears to exist, but has almost no signs of life.) Darren eventually got tired of running things, but still stayed involved (including personally paying the bills, some $6K over 10 years, by my estimations). He was highly unavailable and membership requests went unfulfilled for months at a time (he was often under water as a Navy sub contractor... not that he was a slacker.) When he bailed, he asked me to handle the admin role and Dave & Alan stuck around as moderators. Enter crowd funding. Exit greenies. Lots of unhappy members, many of them borderline trolls (or at least trolling for reputation points.)

Fast forward a few more years and as Facebook became wildly popular, VFTT usage faded. I think the somewhat deserved reputation of being elitist has faded somewhat, but it's not gone entirely. We three have tried to be as impartial as possible, but of course every moderator action annoys someone. Facebook groups exhibit a lot of the behaviors those early AMC and Usenet forums, except that most people have a real identity there and so there are some trappings of decorum. Facebook is really, really good at the things that most members want to see - trip reports, current information, and pictures. vBulletin is somewhat dated in its user interface and being generic does not excel at the picture sharing, nor at the fill-in-the-blanks trail conditions that newenglandtrailconditions.com provides. What's left is a lot of helpful historical information, and highly reliable answers about more obscure and/or historical subjects.

Anyway, this is off-topic for this thread, so I will stop here.

Tim
Click to expand...

Off topic but well put. Thanks for all your help!
 
I'm a member of a few FB groups. The groups are large (14k) members. There is a number of issues with the groups, which I suppose is common in most large groups. There are many beginners and many just above beginner level. There are some experienced hikers as well, but I think they are in the minority. Not to the surprise of some long time VFTT members, I have been sent to jail on more then one occasion from these groups. It can get frustrating the lack of effort people put into trip planning before asking questions on FB. Like many here, I put in a lot of work when I started hiking and on into my years in the field, that may be a dying art. Questions like, "How far is it to Liberty's summit from the notch" clearly this person is either stone cold lazy or they don't own a guidebook. I posted a PSA on those sites a few weeks back and was vilified for suggesting people need to be prepared for winter conditions deep in the back country. I fought back, got thrown in jail and 24 hours later there was a rescue, due to lack of the very gear I was suggesting as mandatory. It just gets frustrating the amount of rescues and considering the resources available, outside of tourist just jumping on trails, there's really little reason you should lack the knowledge needed to hike the 4ks this day and age. I think back to the early 80's, most of us did the work needed. I ran into many great hikers and very few goofer's back then. Once social media took hold, it went downhill from there. The new generation has one resource for their knowledge, their phones and the groups they join online. There is some bad advice being handed out and people take it as gospel if they read it online. Anywho, I could go on and on, but I suspect I'm preaching to the choir on this site. This site may have low traffic, but there are few sites that can match the experience level among the members here. It's a nice refuge from the " Is Mt. Washington safe to climb?" crowd.
 
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sierra said:
I'm a member of a few FB groups. The groups are large (14k) members. There is a number of issues with the groups, which I suppose is common in most large groups. There are many beginners and many just above beginner level. There are some experienced hikers as well, but I think they are in the minority. Not to the surprise of some long time VFTT members, I have been sent to jail on more then one occasion from these groups. It can get frustrating the lack of effort people put into trip planning before asking questions on FB. Like many here, I put in a lot of work when I started hiking and on into my years in the field, that may be a dying art. Questions like, "How far is it to Liberty's summit from the notch" clearly this person is either stone cold lazy or they don't own a guidebook. I posted a PSA on those sites a few weeks back and was vilified for suggesting people need to be prepared for winter conditions deep in the back country. I fought back, got thrown in jail and 24 hours later there was a rescue, due to lack of the very gear I was suggesting as mandatory. It just gets frustrating the amount of rescues and considering the resources available, outside of tourist just jumping on trails, there's really little reason you should lack the knowledge needed to hike the 4ks this day and age. I think back to the early 80's, most of us did the work needed. I ran into many great hikers and very few goofer's back then. Once social media took hold, it went downhill from there. The new generation has one resource for their knowledge, their phones and the groups they join online. There is some bad advice being handed out and people take it as gospel if they read it online. Anywho, I could go on and on, but I suspect I'm preaching to the choir on this site. This site may have low traffic, but there are few sites that can match the experience level among the members here. It's a nice refuge from the " Is Mt. Washington safe to climb?" crowd.
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Also off topic, and also well put ;) ;)

Tim
 
You both did well. Back in the early days there was a climbing board too. For some reason, maybe because on the most abused of the AMC sites, Mountains & Molehills which was for ranting I spent time as Mr. Sarcasm...., I befriended two of the more vocal ranters. As I have read other places, spending hours outdoors, alone or with just a friend or two in less than fair conditions does impact one's demeanor. Those two individuals either spent time in this hemispere's most remote locations (SA, Mexico Mtns) or amongst the higher peaks in the USA and his travels enabled him to meet his future wife. We also had a fatality of one member also, on Shasta in the late 90's.

To bring it back on topic, we likely have several achieved discussions on rescues in the Dry River area here. During the lumber era, yes, before VFTT, the railway up the Dry River had more bridges then any other and once logging ceased, the Dry River Valley's bridges washed away first. The Dry River, Wild River and Great Gulf are amongst the least traveled locations in the Whites with junctions off the AT in heavily used areas.
 
bikehikeskifish said:
The more things change, the more they stay the same. A very short history lesson on VFTT... members with longer standing than I will surely feel OK in correcting me if I am wrong.

Tim
Click to expand...

Good summary Tim. I will add the following...

In the early daze VFTT was more of a community. Folks planned group hikes here, organized very well-attended Spring and Fall Gatherings and took pride in wearing group related merch such as patches, hats, etc. Most were working on one or more lists, and shared info about those activities as well. A common question asked in those days of folks you met on the trail was, "Are you on VFTT? What's your screen name?"

Several VFTT folks organized themselves to head went west and do Rainier and other peaks.

And for a time there was even a VFTT rock band that practiced regularly and performed at a few summer and winter get togethers.

VFTT was also the go-to place for accurate and up-to-date trail condx reports. Due to the level of activity, chances were good that the trail you planned to use next weekend was done last weekend and a report written up. This was especially true in the Winter.

There was also a not-to-subtle anti-AMC tone here. The Club was openly criticized and/or ridiculed for various sins with vigorous discussion of all points of view.

I believe that as time went on, many gung ho members aged out of the intense hiking scene. I know I did. In addition, the rise of social media displaced VFTT and its perceived elitist notion of "sponsored" membership. At this point, Audery's pot luck is the only real "group" activity I'm aware of.

I am a member of the Over 40 and Over 50 Meetup Hiking groups and get weekly mails from them announcing their trips. They seem very active, but somewhat anonymous. And the organizers frequently must do mass mailings reminding potential participants of the fitness levels required for hikes, safety equipment needed in winter, and other minutiae related to participation in an activity, which indicates to me that there were/are problems with the "just show up at the trail head" model.

Times and technologies change, as does the Dry River Wilderness. May we all roll with with it gracefully.
cb
 
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sierra said:
" Is Mt. Washington safe to climb?" crowd.
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You mean you climb Mt. Washington? I thought it was a boat ride on some lake.:D In all seriousness I concur with most of what your saying. I'm not surprised you got thrown in jail. Although a lot of the pictures can be interesting on FB I find a lot of the folks to get defensive very quickly. They ask questions that can be simply answered. When they do get answered they take it as if your putting them down for not knowing the answer already.:rolleyes: I agree on the knowledge base here being very good and especially the tolerance of most when the same questions get asked over and over.
 
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