Fatality on Mt. Guyot

[skiguy]

In the winter at that elevation, the availability of dry fuel is difficult and in high winds getting a fire started and keeping it burning is a challenge. The softwoods are usually stunted spruce and fir even the dead ones tend to a have a lot of ice and snow mixed in with them and if the fire gets started, the ice and snow tends to melt and impact the fire.

We used to take the local scouts out on winter hikes and on occasion I would carry some hot dogs. We would stop at some random point in far calmer conditions and have them start a fire for lunch, on occasion we put the limit that they could only use fuel within a 10 foot radius. Usually, the hot dogs would have to be eaten cold until we expanded the search range criteria and generally if not for white birch bark, the fires did not get started. There is a lot of dexterity required in getting a fire going and someone in the early stages of hypothermia would have rough time. I do carry a military surplus trioxane bar that will burn in almost any conditions, but it does not put out that much heat on its own. Starting a fire in snowy windy conditions is an easy skill to attempt but much harder to succeed and I suggest that new winter hikers give it try just to realize that its lot harder than it looks.

Keep in mind that on the various cable shows where they show the featured performer falling through ice and then starting a fire to warm up that there is at least one person standing there filming and there is lot of editing done.

So true. Then try doing it by yourself let alone a pack of Boy Scouts.

 

[dave.m]

In the winter at that elevation, the availability of dry fuel is difficult and in high winds getting a fire started and keeping it burning is a challenge. The softwoods are usually stunted spruce and fir even the dead ones tend to a have a lot of ice and snow mixed in with them and if the fire gets started, the ice and snow tends to melt and impact the fire.

We used to take the local scouts out on winter hikes and on occasion I would carry some hot dogs. We would stop at some random point in far calmer conditions and have them start a fire for lunch, on occasion we put the limit that they could only use fuel within a 10 foot radius. Usually, the hot dogs would have to be eaten cold until we expanded the search range criteria and generally if not for white birch bark, the fires did not get started. There is a lot of dexterity required in getting a fire going and someone in the early stages of hypothermia would have rough time. I do carry a military surplus trioxane bar that will burn in almost any conditions, but it does not put out that much heat on its own. Starting a fire in snowy windy conditions is an easy skill to attempt but much harder to succeed and I suggest that new winter hikers give it try just to realize that its lot harder than it looks.

Keep in mind that on the various cable shows where they show the featured performer falling through ice and then starting a fire to warm up that there is at least one person standing there filming and there is lot of editing done.

While their benefits are easily overstated (particularly with respect to cooking), a folding "twig" stove (e.g., Emberlit, Firebox) has secured a place in my winter day packs. They are much easier to light (often with just hand gather material), require comparatively little fuel to keep running, can be easily kept on top of the snow, and give off a good amount of heat.

That said, I think they are only useful well below the krumholtz zone for exactly the reasons you stated. They're at their most useful in the hardwoods.

Fire making in general, and in a box stove in particular, is a skill, just like lighting a gas stove is.

Speaking of winter stove set ups, I'd like to see what people are carrying but I'll try to start a thread in the General forum for that.

 

[sierra]

Yup. It's a book waiting to be written.

"Calling Ty Gagne...."

How is this a book, nobody has any clue what happened. Speculation is not really good for much.

 

[skiguy]

How is this a book, nobody has any clue what happened. Speculation is not really good for much.

Amen!

 

[Yury]

While their benefits are easily overstated (particularly with respect to cooking), a folding "twig" stove (e.g., Emberlit, Firebox) has secured a place in my winter day packs. They are much easier to light (often with just hand gather material), require comparatively little fuel to keep running, can be easily kept on top of the snow, and give off a good amount of heat.

@dave.m, how heavy is your twig stove?
Have you actually tried using it under similar conditions?

For the sake of emergency I have bough a Jetboil stove.
It should be much easier to start it than a twig stove.
However it's too heavy and too bulky.
As a result I have not carried it with me on day hikes so far.

I do not believe that I will be able to start a useful fire in such conditions.
So my current plan I just to seat overnight in my puffy jacket and puffy pants.
As for hydration, I plan to put some snow into a bottle and keep it under my jacket until snow melts.

 

[dave.m]

@dave.m, how heavy is your twig stove?

I use an Emberlit Titanium. In winter, I trade my Opinel for a Mora Companion. If I'm really planning on relying on the stove in any way, I also carry a small Silky saw. <insert discussion of best folding saw for spruce traps here>

Have you actually tried using it under similar conditions?

Yes, which is why I don't recommend relying on them in the high boreal or krumholtz. Peakbagger's description exactly aligns with my experience.

However, in the lower boreal and hardwoods, it's easier to find dry tinder, birch bark and twigs and branches.

I should emphasize, the primary value is for warmth and comfort. Gas and alcohol stoves boil water faster.

For the sake of emergency I have bough a Jetboil stove.
It should be much easier to start it than a twig stove.
However it's too heavy and too bulky.
As a result I have not carried it with me on day hikes so far.

It would be interesting to hear what others carry for stoves but I suspect your JetBoil will be in the norm for size and weight.

I do not believe that I will be able to start a useful fire in such conditions.

I find it easier to start fires in a small twig stove thanks to their chimney effect but I can't emphasize this enough... IMO winter hikers should be able to get their stove running in any circumstance and should know the stove's limitations well.

I recommend making tea/coffee every day for a month in the winter with any stove.

If you want to play around with twig stoves, search for videos for DIY Coffee can hobo stoves.

So my current plan I just to seat overnight in my puffy jacket and puffy pants.
As for hydration, I plan to put some snow into a bottle and keep it under my jacket until snow melts.

I wouldn't advise that. The snow or cold water will draw heat from your core. Peakbaggers advice is spot on. Learn your stove. Carry it. Use it to make hot drinks.

 

[NH2112]

I’ve never had a problem getting my Whisperlite started down to around 0F, I haven’t tried it much lower than that. I need to. I’ll use my pack, rocks, or dig a hole in the snow to get it out of the wind. The blade of my shovel makes a good heat shield to set it on. It’s not something you can just light and go, it takes a few minutes to preheat the generator to vaporize the liquid fuel. I’ve been told to put some white gas in a small bottle (like for eye drops) and use that to fill the preheat cup instead of opening the fuel valve. You can get the adapter to use a fuel canister, and if you flip the canister so it’s withdrawing liquid instead of vapor it’ll work in much colder temps. Still not as good as white gas IME, even if you use a fuel with a higher percentage of propane. I worked as a forklift mechanic for 6 years, and even though propane boils at -42F it’s harder to ignite and get to run smoothly around 0F or lower until the coolant going through the vaporizer (equivalent to the generator tube) starts warming up. But when your canister gets low it won’t work as well, when my white gas fuel bottle gets low I just pump it up more.

 

[peakbagger]

If you read the Kate M book, (working from memory as I gave it to someone) there is a section that describes the two rescuers who are attempting to head over to Watson Path (breaking trail in deep snow) needing to warm up by heating liquid with a cannister stove (presumably an Isopropane stove but I do not remember a mention of brand but I would guess a Jet boil), the first stove/cannister would not light as it was too cold despite a very major need for it to do so. They ended having to use a second cannister that was way down in the other officer's pack presumably where body heat from the officer would have kept it warmer or the cannister was new and they were successful.

Having lived with a MSR pocket rocket one cold spring on the AT for 5 weeks, I learned the tricks of running one in 30 F temps on occasion and can confirm that they start to have issues around freezing with a new cannister having a range down to possibly 25 F while a cannister nearing empty was showing signs of poor performance in the mid to high 30s. I learned to keep the cannister in my sleeping bag on cold nights for breakfast while generally on most nights it was less of an issue as we normally ate near or before dark before the temps dropped from radiational cooling. There are tricks to get lower temperature vaporization by rigging up a copper heat conductor from the burner and wrapped around the tank but not something to rely on in an emergency. As mentioned, there are a few rare cannister stoves that can be run with an inverted cannister that have a fuel vaporizer in the burner but they are a larger footprint. IMHO for an emergency winter stove, a cannister stove is not the way to go.

The liquid fuel stoves that seemed to be the go to ones for emergency in the past were the Coleman Peak 1 feather 400 or an old Optimus 8R or Svea with the optional pump and tube of priming paste. All three are no longer sold new but used ones are on Ebay and parts are available but require some looking but if you buy one especially the Coleman buy one with low hours and is tested. They all have a small fuel tank of various sizes, (I think the Peak 1 is bit bigger) so no need for a separate one. The Peak one had an optional hard aluminum case that could be used as a pot in pinch. It is probably sacrilege. to some folks, but my experience is the Peak 1 is probably the easiest to use as long as someone didnt try to use auto gas through it at one point. No need to assemble it and it has a built in pump (although priming paste makes it lot easier). The Optimus is probably the smallest footprint but a separate pot will take up space (It can be stuffed with gear). In any case these are not for the fast and light crowd but are darn close to bombproof. The alternative is a Trangia alcohol burner, a lot slower to boil, (one stepup from a can of Sterno) and lower Btu content fuel (1/3 less than Naptha) but no moving parts. If the choice is nothing or a Trangia, go with a Trangia and worse case a can of Sterno.

Even with a small fuel tank, liquid fueled naptha stoves carry a lot of potential heat. There are 250 calories in one BTU. I oz of coleman fuel has 7800 btus or just under 2 million calories, that is a lot of granola bars and no need for digestion, its near instant core heat.

 

[JoshandBaron]

How is this a book, nobody has any clue what happened. Speculation is not really good for much.

He was on the phone with family and 911 for several hours and had 2 companions. We might not know what happened but someone like Ty could probably get that information. His mother didn't seem particularly media shy.

 

[dave.m]

If you read the Kate M book, (working from memory as I gave it to someone) there is a section that describes the two rescuers who are attempting to head over to Watson Path (breaking trail in deep snow) needing to warm up by heating liquid with a cannister stove (presumably an Isopropane stove but I do not remember a mention of brand but I would guess a Jet boil), the first stove/cannister would not light as it was too cold despite a very major need for it to do so. They ended having to use a second cannister that was way down in the other officer's pack presumably where body heat from the officer would have kept it warmer or the cannister was new and they were successful.

Having lived with a MSR pocket rocket one cold spring on the AT for 5 weeks, I learned the tricks of running one in 30 F temps on occasion and can confirm that they start to have issues around freezing with a new cannister having a range down to possibly 25 F while a cannister nearing empty was showing signs of poor performance in the mid to high 30s. I learned to keep the cannister in my sleeping bag on cold nights for breakfast while generally on most nights it was less of an issue as we normally ate near or before dark before the temps dropped from radiational cooling. There are tricks to get lower temperature vaporization by rigging up a copper heat conductor from the burner and wrapped around the tank but not something to rely on in an emergency. As mentioned, there are a few rare cannister stoves that can be run with an inverted cannister that have a fuel vaporizer in the burner but they are a larger footprint. IMHO for an emergency winter stove, a cannister stove is not the way to go.

The liquid fuel stoves that seemed to be the go to ones for emergency in the past were the Coleman Peak 1 feather 400 or an old Optimus 8R or Svea with the optional pump and tube of priming paste. All three are no longer sold new but used ones are on Ebay and parts are available but require some looking but if you buy one especially the Coleman buy one with low hours and is tested. They all have a small fuel tank of various sizes, (I think the Peak 1 is bit bigger) so no need for a separate one. The Peak one had an optional hard aluminum case that could be used as a pot in pinch. It is probably sacrilege. to some folks, but my experience is the Peak 1 is probably the easiest to use as long as someone didnt try to use auto gas through it at one point. No need to assemble it and it has a built in pump (although priming paste makes it lot easier). The Optimus is probably the smallest footprint but a separate pot will take up space (It can be stuffed with gear). In any case these are not for the fast and light crowd but are darn close to bombproof. The alternative is a Trangia alcohol burner, a lot slower to boil, (one stepup from a can of Sterno) and lower Btu content fuel (1/3 less than Naptha) but no moving parts. If the choice is nothing or a Trangia, go with a Trangia and worse case a can of Sterno.

Even with a small fuel tank, liquid fueled naptha stoves carry a lot of potential heat. There are 250 calories in one BTU. I oz of coleman fuel has 7800 btus or just under 2 million calories, that is a lot of granola bars and no need for digestion, its near instant core heat.

I agree with almost everything in the post. I vehemently dislike canister stoves but feel like the old guy when I say that. I would trust my Trangia in the winter more.

Turns out that the Svea 123 is still made and even available on Amazon.
Optimus Svea 8016279 https://a.co/d/eBPugrg

They are no longer made in Sweden but the one I got my daughter seems to work fine.

Here is my 40 year old Svea being used in December.


Couple of notes.

1) I've wrapped a strip of carbon felt threaded on wire around the bottom stem of the generator. This allows the stove to be easily primed with white gas by saturating the felt. Once the gas is lit, you can pick up the stove to attach the windscreen and the felt holds the gas in place. Like a brass Yankee Candle. Search YouTube for "Colorado Hiker Svea" for more details. Prior to this, I relied on priming paste for decades.

2) I've become a big fan of the Trangia fuel bottles as their spout simplifies filling and priming. Easy to use and accurate.

3) To prime and start the stove, I've adopted the approach advocated by BernieDawg on YouTube. Once the primer is lit and screen attached, just open the throttle and let it go. It will sputter and flare up as it heats up but the priming fire will ignite the burner on its own and the stove settles in to its roar in a bit. No more matching the priming time to three temperatures and no more lighting a pressurized head.

4) The MSR heat exchanger pot appears to have been designed for the Svea. Turn the pot supports inward and they mate perfectly with underside of the pot. Toss the aluminum cup and the stove packs up inside of the pot.

5) I've cut some thin plywood and covered it with foil for an insulated base to help maintain the prime and not melt through snow. I've used the stove below zero many times and concluded there is no need for a pump at our elevation. An insulated base though really helps.

6) The carbon felt hack combined with the open throttle priming technique allows the stove to easily lit using a fire steel. If I'm carrying white gas, I also swap out my butane lighter for a classic Zippo since they run on white gas too and don't get finicky in deep cold.

I know I'm a crank for sticking with the Svea instead of an MSR or newer Optimus. Maybe I'll consider other stoves when the Svea wears out and can't be repaired. (All white gas stoves require some form of maintenance to keep 'em running.) Or my kids can fight over it when I'm gone more likely.

Sorry for the drift and long post.

 

[Yury]

I do not believe that I will be able to start a useful fire in such conditions.

Context I had in mind:
- Fairly cold and windy weather.
- Steep e.g. 15 - 30 degrees slope
- Two feet of snow on the ground.
- Depressed small trees or bushes

I am pretty confident that I will be able to boil water in such conditions with Jetboil with winter gas canister.
If it's too cold I will prewarm gas canister under my puffy jacket first.

If I do not have a stove with me I would not even attempt to start a fire in such conditions.
My realistic estimate of my chance to start a fire is almost zero.

 

[Yury]

I wouldn't advise that. The snow or cold water will draw heat from your core. Peakbaggers advice is spot on. Learn your stove. Carry it. Use it to make hot drinks.

If I do not have a stove with me, knowledge of how to use a liquid fuel stove is useless.
If you do not have a stove with you, melting snow with your body heat is better than not drinking at all.

BTW, I do not understand "never eat a snow" advice.
When I was a schoolboy and was playing outside in winter, eating snow was an acceptable practice among my friends.

 

[peakbagger]

It takes more than three times the heat to melt snow that its does to raise liquid water from 32F to too hot to drink. For a active kid that is probably easy to offset but to a hypothermic person is just one more nail in the coffin.

 

[John H Swanson]

IMHO in Kate M's case, getting out of the car in the morning was a root cause.

Or maybe breaking treeline. I think the issue with Kate and in this case, might be summed up as decision making. Turnning around really is THE thing to do sometimes.

 

[John H Swanson]

I do a lot of hiking on the Appalachian Trail, I know starting a fire is illegal but with all the dead standing Hemlocks couldn’t he Start a fire till help arrived ? The fire would also be a great way to locate him.
RIP , sorry for your Loss.

I have hiked with an accomplished peakbagger that considered fire to be the emergency situation plan. I have had the good fortune of going through the scouting program which I subtitle: 5 years of experience building fires in all types of conditions. Making a fire in wet snowy conditions is quite difficult as others have mentioned. At elevation, its probably completely impractical (most due to wind and scarce fuel) again as mentioned. For that reason, if your emergency plan is based on fire or using a stove, IMO it's flawed. At lower elevation, it can be possible and I do carry a waxed cotton ball which proves a long time of flame. For the weight, the wax cotton ball, a very small saw (ie. opinal) and a lighter are worth the weight.

Of course, as other said, the emergency plan should be to have insulation and shelter building skills. Think snow shelters vs reality TV. A waterproof windproof layer (that is a sealed sack) is needed. And I prefer insulation that allows you to continue to be mobile (coat and pants) vs. sleeping bag. Because once you climb into the bag you have given up your effort and are counting on others to save you. I prefer to keep the option to walk, stumble and crawl open.

All this and keep the total pack weight under about 25 pounds so as to not exhaust yourself.

 

[John H Swanson]

I do a lot of hiking on the Appalachian Trail, I know starting a fire is illegal but with all the dead standing Hemlocks couldn’t he Start a fire till help arrived ? The fire would also be a great way to locate him.
RIP , sorry for your Loss.

Once built a stretcher out of dead wood to carry a hiker with a broken leg out of the woods. Got to the road and was waiting for the ambulance with the ranger. I mentioned, that I was glad I could find the suitable dead wood to build the stretcher so i did not have to cut down a live tree which is illegal. he said: "we don't enforce the law in situations like this." While I cant say the same would be true for making a fire if prohibited, I would like to think so.

 

[dug]

Since we've drifted already, one thing to consider with Kate's case is she was training for an Everest trip, or something "bigger" than the Whites, I think ( ? ) If so, she would've viewed this as a good training ground to get acclimated to those conditions. It's like someone training for a marathon, you want to train in conditions as close to what you will experience so you know what needs improvement before you get there. Same with any athletic endeavor, really. I never trained for a game or a trip without pushing myself as close to what I could handle.

So, IMO, up until the end I could seriously envision her thinking all this was good training and she would could work through the problems where it's easier to manage -- NH where you are only "a few miles from the road" vs. Camp 4 near the Everest South Summit where you may as well be on the moon. Even the weather wouldn't have scared her off, likely she embraced it.

From my seat, I wouldn't do what she did...but I can certainly understand and, to some degree, agree with her from her seat and what she wanted to get out of that trip. Of course, in hindsight I presume she would change everything about that day. But before? Doubt it.

 

[pedxing]

Coleman fuel (naptha) has a heat content of 125,000 btus per pound. There is about 2 lbs of water in a liter. To melt and heat snow from 0 F to 100 F (hotter and someone will get burned drinking it) takes 434 Btus per pound (latent heat of fusion is 334 btus/lb plus 1 btu per deg F ) or 868 btus per liter Lets assume the stove weighs 2 pounds. Someone with 3 lbs of stove and fuel can heat up 48 liters of water from snow to hot water. A whole lot more if they can find liquid water. A hiker cant drink that much but they can use the bottles of hot water to stay warm plus add core heat when needed. I would hard pressed to think of three pounds of other gear that will give the same potential to survive a night outdoors. A Western Mountaineering Kodiak 0 degree bag just happens to weigh 3 lbs (and takes up a lot of room) It does not create heat if just delays loss of heat and its going to have a lower rating unless a closed cell phone pad is also in the pack. Folks with hypothermia are already losing the ability to maintain body heat so without additional heat, the sleeping bag will only slow the onset while having a source of heat and someone rational enough to use it can reverse it.

BTW, I carry hot jello in the standard OR bottle covers and have to be careful not to fill them with boiling water as its too hot to drink at lunch on even a cold day. The claim to fame with hot jello is that it will absorb directly into the gut, no digestion needed and is a fast source of glucose that converts to glycogen that is what the bodies muscles need to put out heat.

I carry an old, never used, emergency stove (like the Esbit stove sold by REI) which weighs weighs about 3 ounces and a light weight aluminum mug. Kuvik has a titanium solid fuel stove at 1/2 ounce for 20 dollars: Kuvik Micro Titanium Solid Fuel Stove. Fuel pellets will add a few more ounces. I've tested the tabs in very cold weather - wind protection is an issue.

 

[skiguy]

Since we've drifted already, one thing to consider with Kate's case is she was training for an Everest trip, or something "bigger" than the Whites, I think ( ? ) If so, she would've viewed this as a good training ground to get acclimated to those conditions. It's like someone training for a marathon, you want to train in conditions as close to what you will experience so you know what needs improvement before you get there. Same with any athletic endeavor, really. I never trained for a game or a trip without pushing myself as close to what I could handle.

So, IMO, up until the end I could seriously envision her thinking all this was good training and she would could work through the problems where it's easier to manage -- NH where you are only "a few miles from the road" vs. Camp 4 near the Everest South Summit where you may as well be on the moon. Even the weather wouldn't have scared her off, likely she embraced it.

From my seat, I wouldn't do what she did...but I can certainly understand and, to some degree, agree with her from her seat and what she wanted to get out of that trip. Of course, in hindsight I presume she would change everything about that day. But before? Doubt it.

IMO her line of thinking is what cost her paying the ultimate price. She underestimated The Whites and based her decisions upon prior experiences which were not in line for what she was trying to do. For example, she had hiked very little previously in the Whites and never had done a Presidential Traverse in any conditions. Also, most of her experience was under a Guide. Albeit most of those climbs before the tragedy were successful which contributed to a misconstrued view of what she was really getting herself into. She lacked the experience, skillsets and knowledge to succeed within the endeavor she was pursuing.

 

[sierra]

He was on the phone with family and 911 for several hours and had 2 companions. We might not know what happened but someone like Ty could probably get that information. His mother didn't seem particularly media shy.

I had no idea about this, thanks for the information, I stand corrected.

If you read the Kate M book, (working from memory as I gave it to someone) there is a section that describes the two rescuers who are attempting to head over to Watson Path (breaking trail in deep snow) needing to warm up by heating liquid with a cannister stove (presumably an Isopropane stove but I do not remember a mention of brand but I would guess a Jet boil), the first stove/cannister would not light as it was too cold despite a very major need for it to do so. They ended having to use a second cannister that was way down in the other officer's pack presumably where body heat from the officer would have kept it warmer or the cannister was new and they were successful.

Having lived with a MSR pocket rocket one cold spring on the AT for 5 weeks, I learned the tricks of running one in 30 F temps on occasion and can confirm that they start to have issues around freezing with a new cannister having a range down to possibly 25 F while a cannister nearing empty was showing signs of poor performance in the mid to high 30s. I learned to keep the cannister in my sleeping bag on cold nights for breakfast while generally on most nights it was less of an issue as we normally ate near or before dark before the temps dropped from radiational cooling. There are tricks to get lower temperature vaporization by rigging up a copper heat conductor from the burner and wrapped around the tank but not something to rely on in an emergency. As mentioned, there are a few rare cannister stoves that can be run with an inverted cannister that have a fuel vaporizer in the burner but they are a larger footprint. IMHO for an emergency winter stove, a cannister stove is not the way to go.

The liquid fuel stoves that seemed to be the go to ones for emergency in the past were the Coleman Peak 1 feather 400 or an old Optimus 8R or Svea with the optional pump and tube of priming paste. All three are no longer sold new but used ones are on Ebay and parts are available but require some looking but if you buy one especially the Coleman buy one with low hours and is tested. They all have a small fuel tank of various sizes, (I think the Peak 1 is bit bigger) so no need for a separate one. The Peak one had an optional hard aluminum case that could be used as a pot in pinch. It is probably sacrilege. to some folks, but my experience is the Peak 1 is probably the easiest to use as long as someone didnt try to use auto gas through it at one point. No need to assemble it and it has a built in pump (although priming paste makes it lot easier). The Optimus is probably the smallest footprint but a separate pot will take up space (It can be stuffed with gear). In any case these are not for the fast and light crowd but are darn close to bombproof. The alternative is a Trangia alcohol burner, a lot slower to boil, (one stepup from a can of Sterno) and lower Btu content fuel (1/3 less than Naptha) but no moving parts. If the choice is nothing or a Trangia, go with a Trangia and worse case a can of Sterno.

Even with a small fuel tank, liquid fueled naptha stoves carry a lot of potential heat. There are 250 calories in one BTU. I oz of coleman fuel has 7800 btus or just under 2 million calories, that is a lot of granola bars and no need for digestion, its near instant core heat.

I started out with the Coleman, brings back memories. I went to the Optimus 8R with the pump and used that successfully for many years. I set up a camp on White Mt peak in CA at about 11,680 after driving in from San Francisco and it was too much gain in one day, got altitude sickness in the middle of the night and had to abort camp. Left behind My Optimus stove and two days later it was gone. Took me awhile to get over that.