FYI: Northern Pass High Voltage Transmission Project

[wisher]

I hope they do things in an environmentally conscious way, but I hope the project goes through! I just interviewed for a job as an apprentice lineman the other day, and a big project like this would make it that much easier to get hired. The prospect of getting paid to work hard out in the mountains sounds pretty darn good.

 

[Spiny Mouse]

"Clean Canadian Hydro" isnt, it is very similiar to the Dickey Lincoln proposed project in nortnwestern maine of many years ago but on a much larger scale. There were many protests by the local native tribes when the first dams went in. Eventually they were bought off and that model is being used for the new dams.

The tribes weren't so much bought off as simply forced to accept it. Hydro power claims to be clean and environmentally friendly, but it has huge social and environmental effects, even when put in place in an area as remote as northern Quebec. When the man who spearheaded the whole notion of drawing hydro power from the region died with his arteries all clogged up, the saying was that the same thing had happened to him as he had done to the rivers in the region.

How do we reconcile the amazing and wonderful things that humans can engineer with what they cost? The hydro systems in Quebec and Labrador which are feeding me power right now are exciting Works of Man, yet they have a cost that is being paid by strangers whose economy, society, and culture suffered to make it possible.

I'm sure many of us here struggle with this sort of thing as we drive our petroleum drinking vehicles up to the mountains so we can go enjoy some hours in a fragile wilderness.

 

[LRiz]

Facebook opposition group.

I am disgusted by this project and the sheer devastation it will cause... for the sake of supplying the majority of its electrical power to southern New England states.

 

[TDawg]

Hydro power claims to be clean and environmentally friendly, but it has huge social and environmental effects, even when put in place in an area as remote as northern Quebec.

True. A good example of the social and environmental detriments are the dams, both built and proposed, for the Yangtze River in China. The one with the most press time was the Three Gorges Dam. You don't hear the international uproar when huge projects are built in the middle-of-nowhere Quebec or Labrador. But when millions of people are displaced, and important archaeological sites are inundated, it's another story.

As for Canada, google Churchill Falls (Labrador) and look at before and after pics. Not much of a falls anymore.

Other major power projects to look at are "James Bay Project" and the stations on the Manicouagan River. One of the dams on the Manicouagan forms, "the eye of Quebec."

Edit: Just noticed Spiny Mouse's link to Manicouagan. Great minds think alike?

 

[DougPaul]

Hydro power claims to be clean and environmentally friendly,

Not if you happen to be a fish...

Doug

 

[Waumbek]

Facebook opposition group.

I am disgusted by this project and the sheer devastation it will cause... for the sake of supplying the majority of its electrical power to southern New England states.

There's a greenie coming your way on this one. Thank you. From what I have been reading since I first posted, this proposed powerline, using a 150' cleared ROW now in the Reel Brook area, will continually be subjected to "upgrades"--more lines and consequent widening of the ROW down the road as more and more Hydro Quebec power ziplines south on it. The overhead HVDC lines must be spaced 100' from one another. By 2050 I can envision the crossing of the AT on the Kinsman Ridge looking like the armpit of the Whites. The current 40-50' wooden poles will look like toothpicks.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Facebook opposition group.

I am disgusted by this project and the sheer devastation it will cause... for the sake of supplying the majority of its electrical power to southern New England states.

Assuming more power has to be supplied to southern NE states, are there other alternatives? Bring it down thru NY? Wait for off-shore windmills to be built and buy power from them?

 

[drewski]

maybe a nuke plant in dalton would work???

 

[Craig]

Interesting. My home is directly adjacent to the existing power line corridor easement where they wish to put the new HVDC line.

I walk my dog, ride my mountain bike, and cross country ski on the trails under the existing power lines. The easement is only 300 feet from where I'm sitting right now.

Have you done any research into the EMF issue?

 

[wisher]

EM radiation is going to turn you into a zombie

They've done decades of research on the matter, and thousands of studies. None have ever established a causal link between EMF and any adverse effects in plants, humans, or other animals. For that matter, keep in mind that your compass wouldn't work without EMF.

It'd be nice in ways if society were suddenly replaced with a primitive society with far fewer people and subsequently less impact on the world. However, as an instant Utopian society isn't likely anytime soon, we might as well live in the real world. So until that time, I'll be enjoying my computers, electricity and the comforts they provide (like this forum).

From a conservation aspect, I definitely understand the view that once a pristine wilderness area is ruined, it's probably ruined forever. If it's really contentious hopefully they won't do it. It's terrible what they've done to some of the Appalachians down South. But I think they do a pretty good job here of stewardship. I don't think they'll let any project through without making sure it's the best alternative with the least impact.

 

[Craig]

For folks interested in the EMF issue, the following are good resources.

NIEHS – National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences

WHO – World Health Organization – they maintain a database of past/present & future studies

 

[Lou Hale]

Assuming more power has to be supplied to southern NE states, are there other alternatives? Bring it down thru NY? Wait for off-shore windmills to be built and buy power from them?

I recall seeing a proposal to run a line down the Hudson river, but I think southern NH is in need of the power the most so the Hudson is a bit out of the way. I don't think the CT river is deep enough for that approach to work.


Its going to become a bigger issue in March of 2012 if the 680MW of generation at VT Yankee goes off line forever. A lot of VY power is shipped to the NH side of the river

 

[smitty77]

Its going to become a bigger issue in March of 2012 if the 680MW of generation at VT Yankee goes off line forever. A lot of VY power is shipped to the NH side of the river

And I imagine a lot of that power makes it way south into Central Mass as well. According to my last statement from National Grid almost one third of the power they supply to their customers comes from nuclear generation.

Nobody wants coal plants.
The BP disaster has made out-of-sight (I mean offshore) oil and natural gas exploration unpopular.
The explosion of a natural gas plant in CT that was under construction raised further concerns.
Wind turbines are unsightly (to some) and destroy ridgelines and potentially ocean views.
Hydro alters the landscape and turns fish into slurry.
Solar loses is benefit in Northern climates.
Nuclear is a four-letter word.

And as wisher pointed out, a power-free utopia isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. You gotta pick one, folks. Or a couple. Some can be placed near the point of use (granted under great opposition in the case of Seabrook and Pilgrim) and some need to be placed in specific locations and have their power transmitted.

By the way, along with Vermont Yankee, Pilgrim's license expires in 2012 and the license extension has been held up by the NRC. If they both go dormant, half of the region's Nuclear power will be gone at the start of the 2012 summer, or roughly 15% of the region's power supply assuming: 1) National Grid's supply chart is indicative of the power supply throughout the region and 2) there are no incoming feeds from sources in CT and NY. Get your flashlights ready for all of those rolling blackouts.

 

[Waumbek]

I recall seeing a proposal to run a line down the Hudson river, but I think southern NH is in need of the power the most so the Hudson is a bit out of the way. I don't think the CT river is deep enough for that approach to work.


Its going to become a bigger issue in March of 2012 if the 680MW of generation at VT Yankee goes off line forever. A lot of VY power is shipped to the NH side of the river

I think you are referring to the Champlain Hudson Power Express, a Hydro-Quebec HVDC project to send power to Yonkers, I believe. The lines will be underground, I also understand.

The Northern Pass project will ship power predominantly south of the NH border. Only about 20% of it will go to PSNH customer, if I recall correctly. The parent company of PSNH, Northeast Utilities, is based in Hartford CT. There is not a lot of confirmed information about this project, though. But lots of rumors.

Yes, the Power Express will ship 1,000 MW on HVDC underground lines 355 miles from Canada to a converter station in Yonkers and on to to New York:
http://www.chpexpress.com/project-details.php

 

[el-bagr]

I think you are referring to the Champlain Hudson Power Express, a Hydro-Quebec HVDC project to send power to Yonkers, I believe. The lines will be underground, I also understand.

The Northern Pass project will ship power predominantly south of the NH border. Only about 20% of it will go to PSNH customer, if I recall correctly. The parent company of PSNH, Northeast Utilities, is based in Hartford CT. There is not a lot of confirmed information about this project, though. But lots of rumors.

Yes, the Power Express will ship 1,000 MW on HVDC underground lines 355 miles from Canada to a converter station in Yonkers and on to to New York:
http://www.chpexpress.com/project-details.php

Right, the Champlain Hudson Power Express will be entirely underwater and underground. It's a 300-320 kV DC line, consisting of two 5-inch cables to be buried at a depth of 3 feet. Perhaps the VFTT Paddle Park participants will one day kayak or canoe over it.

They provide a PDF route map here - basically from the Richelieu River in Quebec, south through Lake Champlain, then out of the Champlain Canal along railroad right of ways (this jog to avoid the PCB cleanup site in the Hudson) to the Hudson River south of Albany, and then down to the metropolitan area. The line will be developed by a private developer (called Transmission Developers, Inc.) backed by the Blackstone Group. Users of the line (meaning utilities using the line to transmit power, or large industrial users who buy their own power) will pay for it. The line developer says its analyses show New York ratepayers will save $8.1 billion on their electricity bills between 2015 and 2024, by providing less expensive Canadian renewable power, which will force older and less economic domestic generating units offline.

For what it's worth, in order to connect with the renewable generation on the north side of the border, TransÉnergie, which is Hydro-Québec's transmission business, is looking at building $400 million or more in transmission lines toward the Montreal area.

Big projects indeed.

 

[daxs]

In New Jersey, 3 companies are looking at developing ocean wind farms that would be located between atlantic City and Cape May. They would provide 1100 megawatts of power if all of them are built. The DEP has already spent 2 years and alot of money studying migration patterns of brds and fish. Right now, there s very little backlash about these projects. It appears that the Sierra Club in New Jersey is not opposed to t.

 

[TCD]

Must be a low concentration of NIMBY rich folks on the coast there. Wind won't solve the whole problem, but that is a lot of MW. Let's hope the promise is borne out.

 

[Lou Hale]

In New Jersey, 3 companies are looking at developing ocean wind farms that would be located between atlantic City and Cape May. They would provide 1100 megawatts of power if all of them are built. The DEP has already spent 2 years and alot of money studying migration patterns of brds and fish. Right now, there s very little backlash about these projects. It appears that the Sierra Club in New Jersey is not opposed to t.

hmmm, I guess its not much of a problem for hikers if its in the ocean of course its a bit of a supply problem for consumers when the wind doesn't blow or it blows to hard. If the generation already exists in Canada I would like to think its going to be cheaper and over all less detrimental to the environment to ship already made power. The power from the wind farms will still need to be shipped to market

 

[peakbagger]

The generation to supply New England does not exist in Canada when the economy comes back, rather if there are utilities in New England that need power, Hydro Quebec will build capacity to match the demand rather than new plants in the US. Canada does have the resource, but the type of hydro they use is considered "brown hydro" that has significant environmental consequences. If someones approach to environmental issues is regional, than its a win but if they have a global perspective, there are many regulatory bodeis that have determined that it is a net loss to the environment. Generally they want 20 year contracts so that they recoup their investment. Where the utilities make money is they get a surcharge on every kW that is delivered over their lines. Generally transmission and distribution is far more profitable than power generation.

 

[Waumbek]

...the type of hydro they use is considered "brown hydro" that has significant environmental consequences. If someones approach to environmental issues is regional, than its a win but if they have a global perspective, there are many regulatory bodeis that have determined that it is a net loss to the environment. Generally they want 20 year contracts so that they recoup their investment. Where the utilities make money is they get a surcharge on every kW that is delivered over their lines. Generally transmission and distribution is far more profitable than power generation.

Interesting. I am unfamiliar with the term "brown hydro." Does it generally mean "not green," or is there a more specific meaning?