Garmin 76CS

[Peakbagr]

Anyone here have the '76CS and some experience with it they'd care to comment on?
I know someone who has one and said they couldn't get it to operate with Lithiums AAs. Is this in fact the case?
Can some compare and contrast the 76CS with the Magellan Explorist?

Thanks

 

[DougPaul]

Anyone here have the '76CS and some experience with it they'd care to comment on?
I know someone who has one and said they couldn't get it to operate with Lithiums AAs. Is this in fact the case?
Can some compare and contrast the 76CS with the Magellan Explorist?

I have a 60cs--essentially the same internal electronics as the 76cs--works fine on lithium AAs. They shut down when the voltage decays to ~2V.

I suspect your friend's problem was operator error or bad batteries.

Doug

 

[JoeCedar]

I have the older GPSMAP 76 model, now an ancient three years old. There is no problem with lithiums. I really like it and don't see any need to move up just for color. I have a Suunto wrist altimeter which I'm sure is superior to the integrated one in the GPS. The two agree very well. By the way, does anyone know what the minimum recommended operating temperature is for the newer color models? Below about 15-20 *F, the B/W display gets pretty slow and the buttons/rocker becomes unreliable as well. Under those conditions, it is best to just view it and don't change anything.

Joe

 

[DougPaul]

I really like it and don't see any need to move up just for color.

Color makes the display easier to read--blue for water etc. Obviously your choice as to whether it is worth the money to upgrade.

I have a Suunto wrist altimeter which I'm sure is superior to the integrated one in the GPS.

The Garmin GPS barometric altimeter is pretty good. The GPS based auto-calibration is also very handy--I never have to calibrate manually.

By the way, does anyone know what the minimum recommended operating temperature is for the newer color models? Below about 15-20 *F, the B/W display gets pretty slow and the buttons/rocker becomes unreliable as well.

Slowing at low temps is normal for TFT displays.

The temp specs for both units can be found on the Garmin web site under specifications.

The buttons and switches should not fail at those temps.

Doug

 

[CaptCaper]

I've used both GPSMAP 76 and 60CS in temps down to -5 F. With no problems. I use rechargeables and carry lithiums for a backup in those temps as lithiums will perform at those temps.

What I do is use an external antenna and keep the GPS in Gamins Nylon pouch with it zipped shut. The unit produces a little heat and the pouch keeps it warmer. I also keep it attached to my cross chest strap on the pack so maybe with it laying against my body helps as well. With the extra foot of cable I can stick it inside of my jacket next to my warm body to keep it warm if necessary.

By the way the color screen reads much better than the grey scale in all conditions I find.

And I agree the altimeter performs well and with the unit set to auto and after running for an hour or so will give accurate altiude readings. But it needs to be running for an hour at least and with a lock onto the WAAS bird for a while as well.

Hope this helps.

 

[DougPaul]

By the way the color screen reads much better than the grey scale in all conditions I find.

Similar experice here--I have a (b&w) Vista and a (color) 60CS. The 60CS screen is much easier to read.

And I agree the altimeter performs well and with the unit set to auto and after running for an hour or so will give accurate altiude readings. But it needs to be running for an hour at least and with a lock onto the WAAS bird for a while as well.

I normally leave WAAS turned off. (Extra power drain, satellites low to the horizon and frequently blocked in the woods and hills, addtional accuracy not needed, etc) The altitude auto-calibration works fine without WAAS. I normally leave the GPS turned on in the car during the drive to the hills to update the almanac and calibrate the barometric altimeter.

BTW, having WAAS turned on can sometimes degrade accuracy.

Doug

 

[CaptCaper]

Doug(QUOTE) I normally leave WAAS turned off. (Extra power drain, satellites low to the horizon and frequently blocked in the woods and hills, additional accuracy not needed, etc) The altitude auto-calibration works fine without WAAS. I normally leave the GPS turned on in the car during the drive to the hills to update the almanac and calibrate the barometric altimeter.

BTW, having WAAS turned on can sometimes degrade accuracy.

Doug[/QUOTE]

Doug I disagree. I use 2200 rechargeables and have no problem with it running all day. Also when the WAAS locks on again after being lost it corrects everything again. I find by leaving it on all the time the accuracy at the end of the day is much better as well as the vertical and horizontal trip data with all things considered. The WAAS correction isn't needed nearly as often as the other data from the birds. It Carry's over for a while as you probably know.

Plus in October an other WAAS should be launched I believe from what I read which will be even better WAAS coverage.

I don't advise turning it off at all while hiking.

I do turn it on sometimes while traveling to the trail head to get it locked up good so it can carry over the cold spots.

I've recorded over 300 hikes including all 48's and when going back to some of them again I've reused the file on the hike and find it right on with were I am at at the time.

Jim

 

[Peakbagr]

Thanks for the great dialogue.
I want to ditch my Etrex and get a mapping GPS. I saw my friend's 76CS for a week in AZ and seriously impressed. Though a little large, and doesn't have memory card slots, he has the entire USA loaded in for roads(which were handy finding our way around), and the entire Natl Parks + the ADKs(all in 7.5"), and it only took about 1/5 of the 76CS's memory. Do you guys think Garmin might be coming out with a model with memory cards anytime soon?

For you experts, how would the 76 operate vertically in a pouch/pack pocket?
It seems the Garmins over the last few years work best when held horizontally. I read somewhere that the 76 was designed to get the best reception when tilted up so you can read it while walking. Was the antenna on the 76 designed any differently than on some of the other mapping Garmins?
Also, how well does the external antenna work?
All of my questions are really leading around how well it works under canopy, sometimes the heavy canopy of ADK bushwacks.


Thanks,

Peakbagr

 

[DougPaul]

WAAS: Extra power drain, satellites low to the horizon and frequently blocked in the woods and hills, additional accuracy not needed, etc.

BTW, having WAAS turned on can sometimes degrade accuracy.

Doug I disagree. I use 2200 rechargeables and have no problem with it

An inaccurate method for measuring the current draw. I have measured it directly with a meter.

running all day. Also when the WAAS locks on again after being lost it corrects everything again. I find by leaving it on all the time the accuracy at the end of the day is much better as well as the vertical and horizontal trip data with all things considered. The WAAS correction isn't needed nearly as often as the other data from the birds. It Carry's over for a while as you probably know.

WAAS takes up 2 correlators, reducing the maximum number of GPS satellites. The Garmin solution for a mixture of corrected and uncorrected satellites appears to ingnore the uncorrected. A position with a smaller number of corrected satellites can be less accurate than a position with a larger number of uncorrected satellites.

Plus in October an other WAAS should be launched I believe from what I read which will be even better WAAS coverage.

Still faily low on the horizon. The WAAS satellites are in geostationary orbits. And the WAAS corrections are the same no matter how many WAAS satellites are in orbit.

I do turn it on sometimes while traveling to the trail head to get it locked up good so it can carry over the cold spots.

The primary benefits of doing this is an updated almanac (coarse orbital info), a downloaded ephemeris (accurate orbital info), and an established tracking lock. It is easier to maintain a lock than it is to acquire one.

I've recorded over 300 hikes including all 48's and when going back to some of them again I've reused the file on the hike and find it right on with were I am at at the time.

This only argues for repeatability, not accuracy. Anecdotal evidence. There have been tests by professionals on measured ranges in the woods (although I don't recall off hand whether WAAS was examined in these tests).

BTW, the EPE (estimated position error) output by the GPS assumes ideal signal conditions and is based solely upon the geometry of the satellites. Doesn't tell you what the accuracy is in the _real world_. It is _not_ a valid way of comparing the accuracy with and without WAAS.

BTW2: Don't use battey-save mode in the woods. You are much more likely to lose lock.

Use WAAS if you want. If your batteries last as long as your hike, fine that is good enough. But the additional accuracy may be an illusion and your batteries might not last for a longer hike.

Doug
Electrical Engineer

 

[CaptCaper]

An inaccurate method for measuring the current draw. I have measured it directly with a meter.


WAAS takes up 2 correlators, reducing the maximum number of GPS satellites. The Garmin solution for a mixture of corrected and uncorrected satellites appears to ingnore the uncorrected. A position with a smaller number of corrected satellites can be less accurate than a position with a larger number of uncorrected satellites.


Still faily low on the horizon. The WAAS satellites are in geostationary orbits. And the WAAS corrections are the same no matter how many WAAS satellites are in orbit.


The primary benefits of doing this is an updated almanac (coarse orbital info), a downloaded ephemeris (accurate orbital info), and an established tracking lock. It is easier to maintain a lock than it is to acquire one.


This only argues for repeatability, not accuracy. Anecdotal evidence. There have been tests by professionals on measured ranges in the woods (although I don't recall off hand whether WAAS was examined in these tests).

BTW, the EPE (estimated position error) output by the GPS assumes ideal signal conditions and is based solely upon the geometry of the satellites. Doesn't tell you what the accuracy is in the _real world_. It is _not_ a valid way of comparing the accuracy with and without WAAS.

BTW2: Don't use battey-save mode in the woods. You are much more likely to lose lock.

Use WAAS if you want. If your batteries last as long as your hike, fine that is good enough. But the additional accuracy may be an illusion and your batteries might not last for a longer hike.

Doug
Electrical Engineer

Having used Nav instruments for years now in the field for the need of high accuracy i.e. finding small wrecks,lost trails do to snow cover,etc. including Loran C and different GPS's I stand by all that I have said.

The proof is in the pudding.

The Garmin 60CS a smaller unit like a Rhino and holds plenty of Topo and City Select. More than I can use at one time. It's one heck of a unit.

Doug don't get flipped out but you should check your spelling.

Good Luck

Jim

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks for the great dialogue.
I want to ditch my Etrex and get a mapping GPS. I saw my friend's 76CS for a week in AZ and seriously impressed. Though a little large, and doesn't have memory card slots, he has the entire USA loaded in for roads(which were handy finding our way around), and the entire Natl Parks + the ADKs(all in 7.5"), and it only took about 1/5 of the 76CS's memory. Do you guys think Garmin might be coming out with a model with memory cards anytime soon?

Memory card slots are hard to waterproof for outdoor GPSes.

The 76Cs has 115MB of internal memory. What you describe takes a lot more than 1/5 of the memory. The GPS includes a built-in basemap (larger roads, cities, etc).
Some numbers: Metroguide v4 (US roads): 1.3 GB, US TOPO: 1.4 GB, 24K TOPO EAST: 300MB.

That 1/5 of the memory is likely the amount of track memory used. (The GPS cannot tell you how much of the mapping memory is being used. The map loading program Mapsource can.)

For you experts, how would the 76 operate vertically in a pouch/pack pocket?
It seems the Garmins over the last few years work best when held horizontally. I read somewhere that the 76 was designed to get the best reception when tilted up so you can read it while walking. Was the antenna on the 76 designed any differently than on some of the other mapping Garmins?

Best orientation depends on the type of antenna and its orientation in the unit. The Etrex series works best when horizontal, the 60 series and 70 series work best when vertical.

Also, how well does the external antenna work?

Well if it is placed and oriented properly (top of head or on a pole best, top of pack generally good). Allows one to separate the antenna and the display/contol unit--if you could carry the GPS on the top of your head, it would probably work about as well as an external antenna in the same place.

All of my questions are really leading around how well it works under canopy, sometimes the heavy canopy of ADK bushwacks.

Under canopy and in terrain degrade performance by absorbing, blocking, and/or reflecting (multipath) signals. Anything wet (including human flesh) is particularly a problem. You just have to learn how to get the best out of the GPS under less than ideal conditions. I have been able to get adequate fixes under cover and in ravines, but not all the time. Don't waste your time trying from the bottom of a slot canyon.

The quadrifilar helical antenna in the 60/76 series works about as well as the patch antenna in the eTrex series. (There is a lot of religious misinformation floating around about this.) Consumer external antennas usually use patch antennas.

BTW, the 76CS is aimed at nautical uses--the 60CS is aimed at hiking uses. The electronics is the same except the 76CS has more memory, built-in tide tables, and a better basemap. The case and buttons of the 60CS are better for outdoor use--less likely for the power button to get hit in your pack or pocket. And it is a bit cheaper. Take your choice. I wanted a 76CS in a 60CS case...

And yes, many have wished for more memory in either unit.

Doug

 

[Peakbagr]

Doug,

My friend with the 76 told me he had the 100,000 map for the country and the Nat'l Parks East including the ADKs and that it took the capacity he mentioned. I don't have more info, but he's a geek as respects this unit, and the subject of capacity came up when I had told him I wished it had more.
Not because its a small size, but because we don't know where software will be going during the unit's lifespan.

PB

 

[arghman]

I want to ditch my Etrex and get a mapping GPS. I saw my friend's 76CS for a week in AZ and seriously impressed. Though a little large, and doesn't have memory card slots, he has the entire USA loaded in for roads(which were handy finding our way around), and the entire Natl Parks + the ADKs(all in 7.5"), and it only took about 1/5 of the 76CS's memory.

GPS for mapping, or a GPS with capability to display maps? (I do the former. Have a Lowrance iFinder PhD. Decent hardware, incl. memory card + external antenna jack, but user interface / software is miserable. The optimist in me, not that there's much of one, would say that the good news is there's lots of room for improvement in today's GPS user interfaces.)

p.s. I'm thinking of posting a "GPS Gathering" in trips/events in a few wks. Maybe Bear Brook State Park in southern NH (sorry ADKers ). Good opportunity to try out different receivers, I'll bring my Garmin etrex Legend & the Lowrance. anyone interested?

 

[Peakbagr]

Sorry...a GPS with maps to insert waypoint, use for navigation, and run a tracklog.

I can't get to SNH, but what a great idea( other than the thread hi-jack ).

 

[DougPaul]

Doug,

My friend with the 76 told me he had the 100,000 map for the country and the Nat'l Parks East including the ADKs and that it took the capacity he mentioned. I don't have more info, but he's a geek as respects this unit, and the subject of capacity came up when I had told him I wished it had more.
Not because its a small size, but because we don't know where software will be going during the unit's lifespan.

PB

I'm guessing that he was referring to what he had on his computer rather than what was in the GPS.

I took a trip to southern Utah a few years ago and stuffed my Vista (24MB) to the gills. Had to make some tough choices. My 60CS (56MB) is now full with local maps. Always want more...

Doug

 

[spongebob]

Peakbagr

I get to test stuff sometimes for a company, and I have a 76CS. For fitting maps I have the 100K Topo and the National Parks East 24K maps. For the 115MB of memory, I can fit Maine, NH, VT, Most of Northern MA, Catskills, and very Eastern NY on the 100K topo. And the National Parks East New England up (including AT from Connecticut to Katahdin), and most of the ADK park (24K) This takes up pretty much the whole 115 MB of memory. The 100K topo is not the most up to date software for all the roads, but is much better than the base maps. My impression of this unit is mostly good. The buttons are on the top of the unit, and I think most people seem to like the 60CS button configuration at the bottom. This button setup works for me though. But some of my thin plastic coverings over the buttons have started to peel off. The 76CS can seem big and clunky at times(but pretty light), and I kind of feel like a dork taking it out sometimes. But I had a Garmin Rhino in the past, and this GPS is light years better is signal capture. This unit appeals to me that I can take this kayaking too if I wanted.
I will say under thick woods coverage it has been better than I expected to be. You can put it on your car's dash, and it stays there flat while driving. The external antenna, I think most people get one from Gilsson that is fairly cheap. I use a canvas material Garmin zippered bag that is pretty much the same dimension of the GPS unit, and carry it attached to my pack in front when I use it. (has a small loop on back of the canvas bag.) I think this unit or the 60CS would rock with a memory card slot. The battery life is pretty good. When I use rechargable batteries the unit doesn't last as long for me. Overall I think it is a very good unit. (besides my issue with the peeling plastic on the buttons.)

 

[CaptCaper]

Spongbob

I run the Energizer 2300's which are the best now. WalMart has them. See this link about the tests run on them. Like I said I run it all day and get 12 hours easy with the 60cs.

Also there are ways to cut the energy use down like not having the compass or back light on, map page with the declutter on,etc.of course helps with out compromising accuracy.

Great Battery Shoot out

 

[sugahjohn]

I've recorded over 300 hikes including all 48's and when going back to some of them again I've reused the file on the hike and find it right on with were I am at at the time.
Jim

I've been thinking about getting a GPS unit for awhile, but I've heard conflicting views on their reception (save for above treeline) and therefore they're ultimate utility in the Whites. (I'm considering getting into winter hiking, so GPS units would seem to have an inherent utility, especially in white-out conditions, however.) Jim, would you say that you've been able to have decent rerception through much of your hikes on the 48--even in the summer under tree cover?

p.s. I'm thinking of posting a "GPS Gathering" in trips/events in a few wks. Maybe Bear Brook State Park in southern NH (sorry ADKers ). Good opportunity to try out different receivers, I'll bring my Garmin etrex Legend & the Lowrance. anyone interested?

I'd be, despite the fact that I don't have one at present, if that's okay. I'd like to see how various units perform IRL.

 

[frytz]

Reception

I've been thinking about getting a GPS unit for awhile, but I've heard conflicting views on their reception (save for above treeline) and therefore they're ultimate utility in the Whites. (I'm considering getting into winter hiking, so GPS units would seem to have an inherent utility, especially in white-out conditions, however.) Jim, would you say that you've been able to have decent rerception through much of your hikes on the 48--even in the summer under tree cover?
I'd be, despite the fact that I don't have one at present, if that's okay. I'd like to see how various units perform IRL.

I have been using a Magellan Sportak Topo for about 6 months, an admittedly not top of the line unit! It does what I need though! It comes preloaded with Topo maps for the US and comes with the Mapsend software (detailed streets, etc) included (other units must pay ~70 for the software!). It seldom looses reception (foliage in NY/NJ can be dense). I download to Nat Geographics Topo software with excellent results! The trip odometer is useless! But it does what I need! It tells me where I am, where I am going - or hope to go, and where I was - as opposed to where I thought I was! No more mssin the true summit!!


Fred

 

[DougPaul]

I have been using a Magellan Sportak Topo for about 6 months, an admittedly not top of the line unit! It does what I need though! It comes preloaded with Topo maps for the US and comes with the Mapsend software (detailed streets, etc) included (other units must pay ~70 for the software!). It seldom looses reception (foliage in NY/NJ can be dense). I download to Nat Geographics Topo software with excellent results! The trip odometer is useless! But it does what I need! It tells me where I am, where I am going - or hope to go, and where I was - as opposed to where I thought I was! No more mssin the true summit!!

Some people have made some pretty careful comparisons between Garmin and Magellan (reported on sci.geo.satellite-nav). All GPSes dead-reckon postion info over short signal gaps--necessary under canopy, but if carried too far you get garbage positions. It is a tradeoff--give up quickly but give accurate positions vs holding on for a long time and giving poorer positions. Magellan dead reckons farther than Garmins and therefore seems better under canopy, but actually gives poorer positions. (Neither GPS tells you when it is dead reckoning.) See the thread "Question on GPS use under heavy canopy: Garmin vs Magellan" for more detail. http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7393&highlight=heavy+canopy

Also, people have compared the quality of the topo maps. Garmin's maps are based upon USGS topos (1:100K for their US product, 1:24K for their 24K regional products). Magellan's maps have been inferior.

Doug