Government shutdown...

[bikehikeskifish]

What would be gained (or lost) by locking the gates to a road with zero facilities because of a shutdown? I can't imagine much would change, except maybe rangers wouldn't be working, and maybe parking rules will be unenforced. Fee tube locations run unattended as it is.

There is currently nothing on the WMNF Alerts page concerning this.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/alerts/whitemountain/alerts-notices

Tim

 

[peakbagger]

Occasionally a mid level bureaucrat will interpret an event like this as an opportunity to inconvenience the public in hopes that they will raise heck with their local politicians. I am not advocating for it, but stranger things have happened. I think the rational is that by restricting access to the backcountry would reduce the potential for backcountry incidents.

Reportedly in a past shutdown AT thru hikers were stopped at the north and south entrances to the smokies (national park not forest) and prevented from entering the park. I have read that National parks will close their gates but parks with public roads will not attempt to stop traffic. I expect the tourist industry at Acadia will not appreciate the perimeter road being locked during prime leaf season, but if you remember this spring during the sequester, Acadia kept the gates locked on the road for a month or so past the normal opening.

Hopefully, this will shortly be a historical discussion.

 

[J.Dub]

What would be gained (or lost) by locking the gates to a road with zero facilities because of a shutdown?

Answering that question would require logical thinking, which is not something Congress (or mid-level bureaucrats, for that matter) is/are known for.

 

[peakbagger]

I saw this on white blaze but didn't care to track it down

From SNP's Facebook posting:

We are hoping that a government shutdown will not happen. However, if it does, all national park sites, including Shenandoah will close. This means that the entire park will be closed including all facilities, lodges, entrances, trails and the backcountry.

 

[Stan]

It is public land so I don't think they should shut it down under the guise of public safety as opposed to public annoyance. If there is no funding then I speculate there wouldn't be anyone to enforce the closure, right? Woody Guthrie wrote that "this land is your land and this land is my land", so, after you read the other side of the sign, take your land back ... or at least enjoy it in a passive benign manner which doesn't hurt anyone else ... which seems an appropriate standard of behavior in this instance.

 

[Becca M]

Dry River Trail won't get re-routed? Oh yeah, that wasn't happening anyway.....

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

Reportedly in a past shutdown AT thru hikers were stopped at the north and south entrances to the smokies (national park not forest) and prevented from entering the park.

I was surprised to hear that the AT hikers were stopped at the north and south entrances. Funny thing is that I was just thinking that if there were no National Park workers this would be the time to take Lauky and head into the park.

 

[Tom Rankin]

So apparently they have to pay people (Around the clock? Overtime?) to patrol the entrances to national land to keep people out, when the government is broke?

I'm sure the people who are furloughed are inconvenienced, but this is mostly a joke. You can NOT shut the government down. You still need national security, local security, and a whole host of other things. And if Congress shuts down, how will they ever restart themselves?

+1 for JDub!

 

[peakbagger]

In 2005 Hurricane Ivan hit the Nantahala National Forest. It was expected to stay off shore and we had hiking plans so we drove down to do an AT section. As we approach NC, we heard that the storm had come inland. When we got the national forest which is similar to the whites with state highways and private inholdings running through it, it didn't look that bad as the storm had stayed to the east of the ridge line. Every forest service road that had a gate was closed and locked with a laminated forest service notice that said the National Forest (about 1/2 a million acres) was closed and anyone entering the forest would be arrested. We elected to head south to Georgia and hiked the Georgia AT (Chattahoochee NF) which was immediately south of the closed forest. We stopped by headquarters to check on trails status and as far as they were concerned as along as we didn't drive ATVs on the AT we were good to go. Several days later we went back to NC and they had lifted the restrictions to day use only with the permission of FS staff. We hiked and drove all through the area but had to blue blaze a section of the AT as we were not allowed to go overnight. We saw one washed out road and one section of washed out trail in five days.

It all came down to one forest supervisors decision. So anyone care to flip a coin in the whites?

Politically the NH state delegation has 3 democrats and one republican. Realistically the ball in is the house's court so given NH has no republican house members there is less need to upset the local electorate.

 

[RollingRock]

Heard on the NH public radio station this morning an interview with the WMNF supervisor as to the impact of the government shutdown. He indicated the staff has been cut from 120 to 16. The immediate impact is that rest room facilities at the parking lots will not be getting cleaned and if it continues, some campgrounds will start getting closed. That said, most WMNF forest campgrounds close after Columbus Day weekend anyway.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Story here: http://nhpr.org/post/shutdown-impact-tourism-and-white-mountain-national-forest

People can still enjoy the views and the trails. But there’s a question about facilities.

“The forest contains many restrooms, outhouses. they would be okay for a day or two. But if this was for an extended period of time the ability to have those facilities clean and safe would be compromised,” Wagner said in an interview.

There are also 22 campgrounds in the forest.

“The day-to-day operations are run by a private concessionaire. In the short term they would remain open,” Wagner said.

“But if this got to be an extended period we would probably have to start closing facilities.”

Tim

 

[Raven]

Trail adopters and trail work volunteers are reminded they are not covered under the Federal Government's workers' compensation program if they are hurt while working for the Forest Service. We are technically not authorized to do volunteer work for the USFS , but it appears lack of coverage in the event of injury is the only consequence.

 

[Tom Rankin]

LOL, I know some outhouses that go more than a few days without being cleaned!

 

[Bernerbabe]

Peakbagger, This may sound like a stupid question, but is the Perimeter Road at Acadia the main road that goes around the island? I've only been there once, and it was years ago. How exactly would they block that off? Also, +2 for JDub. p.s. The outhouses at BSP are clean.

 

[TJsName]

LOL, I know some outhouses that go more than a few days without being cleaned!

Yeah - I suspect many were already cleaned for the last time this year anyway, and they don't come back until May! Although I'm definitely grouping in State Park facilities with that too.

 

[RoySwkr]

So apparently they have to pay people (Around the clock? Overtime?) to patrol the entrances to national land to keep people out, when the government is broke?

Law enforcement are "essential" so they continue to work

From the ATC:
"A.T. maintainers and Trail club volunteers should cease work on the A.T. and its side trails immediately. The NPS Volunteers in the Parks program (on NPS and some state lands) is suspended. The Volunteers in the Forests program is also suspended. In the event of an accident, lack of those protections would expose A.T. workers, their clubs, and ATC to tort claims and medical costs. Therefore, all A.T. maintenance must cease for the duration of the shutdown.

National park lands are closed to public use. Except for two NPS-APPA NPS law-enforcement officers (Chief Ranger Todd Remaley and Park Ranger Travis Baker), all APPA park personnel have been furloughed, as have most of the staff in the six national park units crossed by the Trail. Incident reporting remains as in the past (see http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/report-an-incident). We urge your compliance in honoring the closures on our national parks and avoiding use of national park lands during the federal government shutdown.

We have learned from the USDA Forest Service that—unless an area can be gated—it will remain open. This is also the case on state lands crossed by the A.T."

This may mean that the roads to Carrigain, Twins, etc. may be gated but many peaks can be accessed from trailheads on non-Federal land such as Ferncroft, Lafayette Place, Appalachia, etc.

 

[peakbagger]

With regards to Acadia, I haven't been there for years but I believe the road they gate is also called the loop road on the eastern side of the park. It basically circles Mt Cadillac and runs along the shore. There are many state and local roads on the island so they would be open. During the sequester delay, bicyclists were flocked to Acadia to use the park roads without traffic.

 

[cooperhill]

Law enforcement are "essential" so they continue to work

From the ATC:
"A.T. maintainers and Trail club volunteers should cease work on the A.T. and its side trails immediately. The NPS Volunteers in the Parks program (on NPS and some state lands) is suspended. The Volunteers in the Forests program is also suspended. In the event of an accident, lack of those protections would expose A.T. workers, their clubs, and ATC to tort claims and medical costs. Therefore, all A.T. maintenance must cease for the duration of the shutdown.
.

got essentially the same message from the USFS. Suspension of volunteer agreements applies to forest service volunteers and also agreements with clubs (AMC, WODC, CTA, etc.)

 

[B the Hiker]

Can I just be clear on this?

a) Is that AT closed if it is on state parks lands? It remains open there, yes?

b) If an organization wanted to hold an event on the AT on state park lands, it can still do so, yes?

I'm trying to get my head around this.

Thanks!


Brian

 

[peakbagger]

The AT is not just one entity, it goes over private, local, state and federal lands. ATC manages it as National Scenic Trail under contract with the National Park Service. Therefore your question would have multiple different answers. If the land is not federal land, then it reasonable to assume that it is still open. This should apply to state lands. Your best shot would be to figure out who the regional maintaining location is and make a specific inquiry. In theory those clubs would have detailed ownership info on the trail corridor Do note that the ATC is privately funded and therefore they will answer the phone and can direct you to the local maintaining organization. Where it might get stickier is where the NPS has an easement over other lands not owned by the federal government. In that case, the NPS has the right to run the trail over other public or private land but they don't own the land under it. Given the NPS statement that NPS protections usually in place on the trail are not in effect with the shutdown, a property owner with an easement may elect to stop hikers from using their land as they may be concerned that they are opening themselves up for potential liability.

Given the apparent blanket statement by ATC that all trail volunteers are to cease maintaining the AT and side trail (without distinguishing between federal and other lands)they may be interpreting things differently.