"GPS"

[DougPaul]

Tidbit: On our hike sunday I explained to my 16 year old some of the arguments against gps. You know, the "I don't need a gps, I'm an expert with M&C" type of thing. He was flabbergasted that anyone would willingly forsake such a powerful tool and remain in what he called the dark ages.

Wait until his batteries run out, he is in a location where the signals are blocked, or his GPS malfunctions.

Old caver's rule: carry a minimum of 3 sources of light...

Many blue-water sailers don't feel comfortable until they can get a good sun or star sight...

M&C&G + brain all complement each other (or should ) and provide redundancy in case of failure.

Also, when I'm sitting at a viewpoint (known location) and want to identify the visible features, I find the M&C to be much useful than my GPS.

Doug

 

[arghman]

The RINO allows you to see other RINO user's locations and tracklogs on your screen. Whenever they communicate with you you get an update of their position. I have never used this cool and geeky feature because I don't know anybody who has a RINO. It smacks of "Cowboys and Indians" a bit to me but I have used the radio. It works with any radio as long as you are on similar channels.

It's better than that, you can send the other person your waypoints over the radio (basically a GPS + CB-radio-modem combo). See previous thread post #15. The Rinos are the one intuitive & innovative feature for which I really tip my hat off to Garmin.

Tidbit: On our hike sunday I explained to my 16 year old some of the arguments against gps. You know, the "I don't need a gps, I'm an expert with M&C" type of thing.

But am I the only one here with a primary purpose for GPS receivers other than navigation?!?!?! I never use them to keep from being lost, I use them almost exclusively to record waypoints of natural features. It seems like the whole consumer market seems to be revolving around the navigation features without much thought to other uses.

 

[Neil]

Argman,
I had forgotten about being able to send WP's to other users. You're right about the amazing capacities of this instrument though. My problem with the RINO is that nobody else I know has one. And, if I went off trail hiking with someone would we take 2 gps's? When I explain some of The features to people they're blown them away until I say I've never used any of them.

I mainly use gps for navigating and staying found. I do record cool stuff en route and give descritive WP names to what I record. I download it all into the PC in my Topo! file and it sits on the hard drive waiting until I redo the hike (unlikely) or someone asks for beta.

Ebbinghaus,
I hope you don't feel that you're thread has been too badly hijacked!

 

[DougPaul]

But am I the only one here with a primary purpose for GPS receivers other than navigation?!?!?! I never use them to keep from being lost, I use them almost exclusively to record waypoints of natural features.

Biologists, geologists, geographers, etc use GPSes to mark plants, features, and locations of interest.

Navigation (traveling from one waypoint to another) isn't all that different from recording locations. And if you go back to a recorded location, I'd call it navigation...

Doug

 

[arghman]

I hope someone will tell me to shut up if I'm not adding anything useful to this discussion...

<begin rant>

Brownie, with the 60CS can you select only certain waypoints from your gps for download to your PC? Or only certain select tracklogs and routes?

Last night I checked both NG Topo and Garmin 100K PC software for ability to download itemized waypoints or routes. Not possible with either program, both required entire data from GPS units to be downloaded.
Both software packages have similar dialog box to select Waypoints, Routes, Tracks or all of above.
However, its quite easy to delete unwanted waypoints, routes, ect., in PC software.

By the way that's one of my beefs with all of these GPS's.

The state of their waypoint organization and transfer operations is extremely primitive. It's as though you had a floppy disk copying files to/from a PC, and all the files in the floppy disk had to be in the root directory (no subdirectories), and every time you wanted to copy a file from floppies to PC, you had to download/upload the entire contents of the floppy disk. Having to delete redundant stuff leads either to a serious information glut (having 7 copies of the waypoint in different files on the PC) or risk of information loss (oops, I deleted one waypoint too many).

I would like to be able to download/upload only the waypoints/tracks/etc. that have been created/modified since a given date/time (by default the last time I uploaded). I would like to be able to put waypoints into "layers" (e.g. the trails layer or the plants layer or the property boundary layer) which I could turn on and off. I would like to do this both on the GPS (when capturing waypoints, and when choosing which layers to display) and on the PC (when editing/renaming or creating waypoints, and when choosing which layers to display). I'd like to rename waypoints on my PC and re-synchronize them back to my GPS, without having to worry that I've deleted data and without having duplicate waypoints on my GPS.

Right now, keeping my waypoints organized & in sync between PC and GPS is a real pain. (edit: for some perspective, I probably have around 1000 waypoints, maybe 2/3 of them split between two local properties I study, and 1/3 of them for rare plant monitoring in the White Mountains.)

Biologists, geologists, geographers, etc use GPSes to mark plants, features, and locations of interest.

Most of my GPS work, aside from personal interest, is volunteering for a couple of land trusts & conservation groups. Our local land trust has all of those interests for gathering data. Unfortunately it can't afford large #'s of licenses for ArcView (we're just in the process of getting one license), and the budget for GPS is definitely consumer-grade, not at the level of buying a Trimble.

The people out there who work for companies making "consumer-grade" GPS receivers and GPS PC software are going to tell me, "Oh, you need professional-grade receivers, what do you expect for $300" and "Oh, you need a professional GIS software like ArcView, what do you expect for $100?" I'm just disappointed.
<end rant>

 

[Papa Bear]

...
By having a fully functional layer system, it would be nice to only display each layer group of waypoints on lists and maps!
Wishful thinking for the future. Brownie

I do the same thing with waypoints. But what I also do is save them to separate files. So for example to get my Cold Hollow waypoints:

1) get the waypoints (and only the waypoints) from the GPS
2) delete all but the Cold Hollow ones
3) save the set and name the file "Cold Hollow Waypoints.gbd"

(Actually my cold hollow waypoints constitue a route, so by just getting that route, all the appropriate waypoints are aggregated in the route.)

Then I delete all but the summit ("CH-summit") from the GPS. That way neither the GPS nor the software get cluttered up. On the software I can reload just the Cold Hollow waypoints (and download them to the GPS if I want to do another bushwhack).

Same with tracks. When I recently retrieved my track for The Traveler, I noticed the active log on th GPS also got uploaded to the PC although the Traveler track is the only one I specifically saved on the GPS. So I got a set of tracks like:

Aug-30-05
Log 001
Log 002
etc.

I deleted all the "Log xxx", then save to a file called "Traveler track.gbd".

Now if you need to keep 1000 Waypoints in the GPS for some reason, my method would break down. If you only need say 20 or 30 at a time (say each time you visit a particular area) you may be able to break it down like this.

 

[Neil]

Arm: LOL (BTW, don't you have some beer to brew?)

Before uploading new route info into my unit I make sure it's cleared of all tracks, routes and WP's.

Then I upload whatever it is I've created in or imported into Topo!

In the field I add new WP's and reposition one or two others and create a track log or two or three.

Back home I download the whole mess into a NEW Topo! file. This avoids the, "this wp already exists dialogue box. Now I save the new file either with a new file name or I overwrite the pre-hike file.

My problem is after only 9 months of gps'ing these *.tpo files are multiplying like rabbits. Any sugestions for neat and tidy file organisation?

Here's a trick: you download someone's logfile in .txt format and get 1500 trackpoints on your PC. Who wants to load THAT into their gps? Not me. You draw a route freehand overtop of the trackpoints and delete them. Create the wp's you think you need over the route and either do a Save or a Save As.

 

[DougPaul]

Most of my GPS work, aside from personal interest, is volunteering for a couple of land trusts & conservation groups. Our local land trust has all of those interests for gathering data. Unfortunately it can't afford large #'s of licenses for ArcView (we're just in the process of getting one license), and the budget for GPS is definitely consumer-grade, not at the level of buying a Trimble.

The people out there who work for companies making "consumer-grade" GPS receivers and GPS PC software are going to tell me, "Oh, you need professional-grade receivers, what do you expect for $300" and "Oh, you need a professional GIS software like ArcView, what do you expect for $100?" I'm just disappointed.

If the accuracy of a consumer GPS is adequate for your work, there are perfectly good GPSes available for less than $100 that can record waypoints. Eg. the Garmin basic (yellow) eTrex.

There are also open source GIS systems available. Free. No license costs. Eg. GRASS http://grass.itc.it/. The FreeGIS project lists a bunch: http://freegis.org/. Another useful link might be http://www.edu-observatory.org/gis/gis.html.

Doug

 

[ebbinghaus]

Hijacked?

Argman,
Ebbinghaus,
I hope you don't feel that you're thread has been too badly hijacked!

NP. I wanted to get a sense of the conversation on GPS' and that is what I have gotten. I do appreciate the RINO's advantages -- but have a hard time seeing the practicality of them.

As a hiking techno-geek, being able to send wp's to my hiking buds really appeals to me. But, as a bushwhacker I can see nothing but trouble down that road. I mean, come on, we would have to bushwhack separately so we could try this out. That means that we would be getting out of line of sight (i.e., more than 5 ft away from each other) and hence violating the cardinal rule of bushwhacking -- never lose sight of your bud. I have no idea how strong this radio is, but I have no doubt that the adirondacks can confound it. You down one gully, me down another -- whoa!! Sounds like trouble.

 

[ebbinghaus]

Hey Ebbinghaus ... this group is in your neck of the woods. Ask them any GPS question you can dream of ... they also have a monthly breakfast get-together, sometimes even the Latham diner!

http://www.tsbsales.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi

Thanks PhillyGeo -- just registered!

 

[Neil]

I do appreciate the RINO's advantages -- but have a hard time seeing the practicality of them.

Like I said: Cowboys and Indians. Very awesome high tech, but C and I all the same.

One interesting piece of observation:
EVERY time I have showed up on an off-trail hike with my gps all the other gps-less participants are really glad to see me. Well maybe not me, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Once I didn't bring it because I knew the route was a no-brainer. To my discredit I really did enjoy the dismay when I said I didn't have my gps.

 

[Nessmuk]

EVERY time I have showed up on an off-trail hike with my gps all the other gps-less participants are really glad to see me.

hmmm, well Neil now that you've said that, I can't resist saying there's always the exception I guess.

GPS is a fine tool, but one of these days I'll just have to organize a public "off trail terrain observation map and compass navigation appreciation program". This is not an anti-GPS message, it's just that there do exist those of us who take pride in knowing exactly where we are and getting to where we need to be without GPS and enjoy it better that way. Not that responsible GPS users don't already know how to use m&c, beyond that its purely a matter of personal taste for me and a number of others I know. I've developed a teaching method over the years and when I teach it I really enjoy watching the "light turn on" when my students really "get" how to put all of natures clues together by observation and can continuously pinpoint their position in the woods.

 

[Neil]

it's just that there do exist those of us who take pride in knowing exactly where we are and getting to where we need to be without GPS and enjoy it better that way.

Nessmuk, I like your post. Especially because I've enjoyed doing informally exactly what you refer to for a long time in Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec. Maybe my skills need honing but M&C always takes me and my partner more time and discussion than gps. In the ADK's trips are very "destination oriented" meaning that we want to get the summit or slide and our time is limited. To the uninitiated at the TH the gps "guarantees" rapid and surefire success. More responsability on my shoulders. So far so good.

 

[Nessmuk]

but M&C always takes me and my partner more time and discussion than gps. In the ADK's trips are very "destination oriented" meaning that we want to get the summit or slide and our time is limited.

AHA! this may be a key difference in philosophy.
I guess I'm going to launch into my particular philosophy here. Neither one is right or wrong, within limits of knowledge gained from proper instruction and experience AND what our personal pleasures happen to be. While I certainly do have destinations in mind when I set out on an ADK trip, I consider the whole process of getting there at least as much fun as the finality of "summiting". Maybe its because since I'm not generally a high peaks person, my western ADK goals tend to focus on precise pond hopping and the art of off trail M&C navigation in and of itself.

You're right, it often does take more time to get to destination without GPS but with experience that deltaT disappears, especially as you learn to map read ahead. If traveling with a partner then mutual discussion should indeed come into play. Heck, I'm usually solo and I have discussions with myself about what I observe and where I am. But it is time spent and discussion about what nature presents before you and how you play with her. Even in the often vistaless and densely forested western ADKs she gives you all the terrain navigation clues you will ever need (I'm excluding vast featureless tundra and desert wasteland locations here) and if you like that sort of thing its a hoot to take the challenge to use them to arrive precisely at just about any wilderness location. You make an ooda loop.

With a GPS you can locate yourself to within 10 feet. I like to say that between waypoints I almost never need to know my position to a precision of a few feet, and where I do need that knowledge it is quite obvious with my open eyes or wet feet. After the first time I bushwhack through an area, I find I've paid so much attention to the terrain in my memory that the next time I go there it's a breeze, and I even consider a certain ridgeline or rock or twisted tree, or even a slight contour line squiggle to be my "friend" because I recall it from before and how it helped me navigate.

One of these days I need to write a book about all this.

 

[Neil]

Nessmuk,
I think you'd like this forum:

http://www.adkhighpeaks.com/phpbb/

 

[ebbinghaus]

GPS summary (? )


Okay. Neil likes his Rino. Everyone else likes the Garmin 60cs. However, the 60cs is not color and has less memory than the 76cs. Prices are very variable so it does not seem like price is the issue here.

How about things such as:

A. External antennas? Are these needed? If so does either the 76 or 60 take one?

B. Mac compatibility? Does software exist to upload and download waypoints from either or both GPS' to a Mac?

Both of these seem to be old as electronics go. Perhaps I am jaded by the rapid progress of the iPod (now in "Nano"). But why are these things 8oz and why do they have such small screens?

Anything else?

 

[DougPaul]

Okay. Neil likes his Rino. Everyone else likes the Garmin 60cs. However, the 60cs is not color and has less memory than the 76cs. Prices are very variable so it does not seem like price is the issue here.

The 60cs is color. Go to the Garmin web site and use their comparison feature--the two units are very similar. I listed the differences earlier in this thread.

And not everyone prefers the 60CS. Different units are designed for different applications and people have personal preferences. The 60CS is a good hiking GPS, but certainly not the only good hiking GPS.

How about things such as:

A. External antennas? Are these needed? If so does either the 76 or 60 take one?

same for both 76cs and 60cs: yes, not usually, yes

B. Mac compatibility? Does software exist to upload and download waypoints from either or both GPS' to a Mac?

Garmin (required to load maps into the GPS) only supports PCs. Don't know about 3rd party software supporting Macs.

Both of these seem to be old as electronics go. Perhaps I am jaded by the rapid progress of the iPod (now in "Nano"). But why are these things 8oz and why do they have such small screens?

Bzzt! Wrong. Moden electronics in both. They are light in the context of high-end consumer GPSes. Screens are good in the context of consumer GPSes.

Anything else?

Lots--go to http://www.gpsinformation.net and read up. Also go to http://www.garmin.com and read up on the units--comparisons and the manuals are available online. More info at http://edu-observatory.org/gps/.

GPSes are complicated and expensive devices. Expect to spend at least $100 more on maps + software. From the above questions, it is obvious that you have a lot to learn--I suggest you spend some time studying the above resources before making a decision.

Doug

 

[Neil]

Okay. Neil likes his Rino.

True, but it's all I know and I've learned it in most of its intimate detail. I have only used the radio once let alone all the other fancy stuff.

 

[ebbinghaus]

Bluetooth Wireless GPS Receivers and Cell Phones?

Does anyone have any experience with the GPS Cellphones such as the Motorola i605 and its ilk? (Bluetooth enabled, cellphone, with what seems like a easy to read screen.)