Hikers knocked down by mini-avalanche on MT Washington
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Nadine
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I've been at Sugarloaf and watched Narrow Gauge slide. 3 foot crown. Would have buried and killed anyone in its path. Avalanches can be anywhere. In ski areas in europe, such as Chamonix and Zermatt, avalanches slide across trails all the time. Many inbound skiers at these resorts wear beacons all the time, and carry probes and shovels with them. Every sport known to man has dangers associated with it. Being aware of what is dangerous around you and knowing how to handle those specific situations is what makes us competent in our chosen sport. Take the avi class, buy the avi gear, review how to use the gear several times a year so when the real situation does occur you know what to do. Dig a pit, test the snow, ski inbounds on days when the snowpack is unstable. Make informed choices.
Nadine
Nadine
giggy
New member
one mountaineering book I have by craig connelly calls beacons body locators.
Interesting - if they were is where I think they were, its pretty low angle, low snow amounts, - just goes to show how quick it can happen even when you think conditions are good.
I heard somwhere, that most of the ava's in the whites (ravines) knock you around and injure you/kill you that way rather than bury you. don't know how true that is trying to stay out of them myself.
I am pretty sure most climbers here, don't use them. but don't quote me on that.
sounds like a freak thing to me.
Interesting - if they were is where I think they were, its pretty low angle, low snow amounts, - just goes to show how quick it can happen even when you think conditions are good.
I heard somwhere, that most of the ava's in the whites (ravines) knock you around and injure you/kill you that way rather than bury you. don't know how true that is trying to stay out of them myself.
I am pretty sure most climbers here, don't use them. but don't quote me on that.
sounds like a freak thing to me.
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gaiagirl
New member
A climbing guide who I know, a guy with a lot of experience in the Whites and elsewhere, has said this same thing about being knocked around by avalanches in the ravines here, and therefore death is by internal and other traumatic injury rather than by being buried/suffocated. I'm in that same club, Giggy --- I prefer to avoid the situation entirely myself. 
cbcbd
Well-known member
I like to think of avalanches as that real big nasty aunt (or other obese relative) that is coming over to give you a bone-crushing hug...
...scary, deadly, usually seasonal, and must be avoided at all costs
...scary, deadly, usually seasonal, and must be avoided at all costs
DougPaul
Well-known member
Sounds reasonable to me. Snow in the NE tends to be dense and many of the running surfaces aren't very smooth. Also if you get swept into the trees (or get hit when you are in the trees), you stand a good chance of serious impact injury.giggy said:
Managed to stay clear of them so far, hopefully will continue to do so...
Doug
SAR-EMT40
Well-known member
giggy said:
I imagine it would depend. Slab avalanches have a tendency to grind people up on the way down, along with trees, rocks and anything else being scrapped up. Like being in a mix-master with boulders and trees. If it is big enough to actually knock you off your feet you are in trouble, and it doesn’t have to be very deep to do that. Many times those people are dead by the time the avalanche stops moving by being ground up or smashed into trees and rocks.
Powder avis while "softer" (please note quotes) can have tremendous speeds associated with them. And while not like being in a grinder, coming down in one would be like riding an express train on the outside of the train as its bumper. Smashing into things on the way down. If you survive the ride you are going to be caught in a white death, very disoriented, in a material that will set very quickly like concrete.
If I remember the stats for totally buried people who survive the ride is 50% are dead in 15 minutes. 95% are dead in an hour. I'm doing this without a net so this is close but might not be exact. If they have a face mask of ice they died from suffocation. If they don't have an ice mask they died on the way down.
Regardless of what type you get caught in an avalanche beacon will help with faster rescue or recovery. We (SAR groups) practice locating them and so should anyone who wears one if they expect it to save their teammates life. Don’t forget. You are practicing to save your friend. He is the one practicing to save your life.
Keith
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yardsale
New member
As ideal as it would be, I doubt we can convince the typical winter White mountain hiker to invest in the 300+ dollars beacon/probe/shovel tiad, not to mention taking the considerable time to learn to use them well. It seems a little avi awarenss trainng would be benefical. I don't know the specifics of the accident in question but avi 101 teaches us to limit exposure when in suspect terrain by separating such that if a slope releases, everyone isn't buried. Education is cheap by comparison. Read The ABC of Avalanche Safety by E. R. LaChapelle for the basics, focusing on chapter 3. Take you 15 minutes and might save your life. Read Avalanche Terrain by Bruce Temper for more detailed approach.
DougPaul
Well-known member
The cost also includes weight and space.yardsale said:
The vast majority of trails in the Whites are pretty safe from avalanche and most of the avalanche zones are pretty obvious. I don't think there is much call for them unless one wanders into the zones of risk.
Also unless there is someone else near-by with a transceiver, its only use is body recovery.
I'm in complete agreement here--a few basic rules of thumb will enable a hiker/climber to recognize the zones and times of high risk and enable him to avoid them.
IIRC, in this case the victims were in the ravine during/shortly after a heavy snowfall. Most avalanches occur during or within 24 hrs of a heavy snowfall.
Doug
forestgnome
New member
I wish people could witness the avalanche that I witnessed in Tuckerman Ravine. I was at Harvard Rock on a moonlit night. How far away is the headwall from there? It sounded like a freight train. The shockwaves of smashing boulders vibrated my ribs. I will never go into high danger avalanche territory. Agree with all who make the point to stay safe in the first place.
Happy Trails
Agree with all who make the point to stay safe in the first place.Happy Trails
giggy
New member
for hiking there is no need for them IMO - but many here also venture in climbing the ravines via snow or ice or both. Personally, I have had some basic training about them as well as beacon training. Based on limited knowledge (but some knowledge) and not being a huge risk taker on climbs, I only venture in when ratings are low or moderate - anything higher, I don't head up. Personally, its an acceptable risk for me. It may bite me in the arse someday, but thats mountaineering and if you don't take some risk, you don't leave the car
David Metsky
Well-known member
As an instructor once said, "If there was a moderate chance that you would be shot if you went into a store, would you go in?" My risk level tops out at low.giggy said:
DougPaul
Well-known member
My motto is "He who chickens today lives to cluck another day".David Metsky said:
I've taken a few risks here and there, but I have tried to take them very carefully and with knowledge.
Doug
giggy
New member
David Metsky said:
well thats works for you and thats great
- heading up in moderate works for me and from what I have witnessed - most climbers. its all about what risk your willing to take to climb. Many will go up in considerable as well.
its all good. Dave - you ski right? I think there is much more of a chance for a skier to start a slide than a climber. (ie - more risk to the skier)
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David Metsky
Well-known member
Yes, I ski, I don't climb.
I wasn't criticizing your choice, but I wanted to put a different perspective on it. If I take more avy courses and get a better feel for things, I may decide that I'm capable of going into terrain when avy risk is moderate. But with my knowledge level what it is, and knowing several folks who've been caught in avys, and having been in two small ones myself, I'll err on the side of caution.
Everyone makes their own choices; I have absolutely no problems with the choice you've made. But a common cause of avy incidents is people who see others in an avy zone and assume that it's safe. We're all responsible for knowing what we need to know.
-dave-
I wasn't criticizing your choice, but I wanted to put a different perspective on it. If I take more avy courses and get a better feel for things, I may decide that I'm capable of going into terrain when avy risk is moderate. But with my knowledge level what it is, and knowing several folks who've been caught in avys, and having been in two small ones myself, I'll err on the side of caution.
Everyone makes their own choices; I have absolutely no problems with the choice you've made. But a common cause of avy incidents is people who see others in an avy zone and assume that it's safe. We're all responsible for knowing what we need to know.
-dave-
DougPaul
Well-known member
Snow climbers tend to climb up snow that is steep enough to avalanche, often in gullys that will concentrate any avalanche or funnel one from above down on you.giggy said:
A number of the ice climbs on the Mt Washington massif are in avalanche chutes.
I'd say the risk is high enough that both steep-snow skiers and technical climbers should be careful.
Doug
giggy
New member
Dave - oh yea - no worries, I know what you meant. just bringing another POV into the matter.
I have learned over the last couple of years, if you don't take some risk sometimes, you don't acheive your goals. I am not talking about heading up after a storm in extreme conditions, just using sound judgment - sometimes, that means turning back and sometimes taking a small chance. I think doug would agree with me, that once one gets into climbing - there is a different level of risk one is willing to take.
like I said - its all good, to each their own.
I have learned over the last couple of years, if you don't take some risk sometimes, you don't acheive your goals. I am not talking about heading up after a storm in extreme conditions, just using sound judgment - sometimes, that means turning back and sometimes taking a small chance. I think doug would agree with me, that once one gets into climbing - there is a different level of risk one is willing to take.
like I said - its all good, to each their own.
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DougPaul
Well-known member
Yep.giggy said:
Prudent risks are what it is all about. Different people just have different perceptions (often rather different from the real risk) and tolerance levels.
If we didn't take any risks, we wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. And statistically, bed is rather dangerous--most people die there...
Doug
David Metsky said:
Interesting Quote fromThis article: The American Institute for Avalanche Research and Education (AIARE is at www.avtraining.org) is one of the main organizations that trains avalanche instructors and provides standard curricula. In a chart they provide to Level 1 trainees, they show the percentage of avalanche deaths that occur in each of the five levels of danger. Only 1 percent of these fatalities occurred when the rating was Very High. Six percent got caught in Low. Eighteen percent died when the danger was rated as High. Three quarters of the fatalities happened when the danger forecast was only Moderate to Considerable (30 percent during Moderate, 45 percent during Considerable avalanche danger)!
Also some good info on the "Human Factor"
DougPaul
Well-known member
Those are the posterior statistics--the missing factor is how many people are out in each of those condition levels. Presumably there are more people out at the lower risk levels.skiguy said:
The real data that one needs is "what is the probability that I will get killed if I go out at each condition level" (the prior-probability). (This is the number_killed/number_out_at_this_level.) Unfortunately, data on how many people are out at each level is much harder to obtain than the number of deaths.
Doug
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