kevinmac
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Hikers Ride Avy down Mt. Washington
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Jason Berard
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I hope they both bought lottery tickets when they got down!
I'm glad they're both OK.
I'm glad they're both OK.
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gram
Member
check this out
http://www.tuckerman.org/photos/tucks/
Scroll down thru the pics to 4-10-09 and take a look at the picture with the red annotations. They were so lucky!
http://www.tuckerman.org/photos/tucks/
Scroll down thru the pics to 4-10-09 and take a look at the picture with the red annotations. They were so lucky!
arm
Well-known member
friggin' butt-sliders ... they ruin the trail for everyone
glad they're alright ... lucky !
glad they're alright ... lucky !
giggy
New member
yea - can happen to anyone really. this was a situation where they did everything right. Really - climbing conditions don't get much better, cool but not cold and not too warm, great snow, great hero ice...
I might not go that far, as they did not recognize the isolated pocket of avy instability until it was too late. Lucky indeed.
Nice analysis by Jeff Lane and fellow USFS snow rangers.
Barkingcat
Active member
JohnL
New member
You could say they did everything right after they did everything wrong.
JohnL
hikes-with-him
New member
I think that this also goes to show how you have to be very careful when hiking/climbing...and not be totally reliant on what the "forecasts" say...
The avalance forceast was "low" and the weather forcast was favorable for this "low" avalance forecast.
I am not, in any way, putting them as having done anything right or wrong (as a novice winter hiker and NON climber, I have nothing to say in this)...just thought that this situation made a point...
VERY glad they are ok.
The avalance forceast was "low" and the weather forcast was favorable for this "low" avalance forecast.
I am not, in any way, putting them as having done anything right or wrong (as a novice winter hiker and NON climber, I have nothing to say in this)...just thought that this situation made a point...
VERY glad they are ok.
cushetunk
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I've been trying to decide if I'm agreeing with Giggy or Dr Daisypodidae. Maybe other avy-savvy folks can offer input on my thoughts.
First, I don't think you can just rule out travelling up any gully with pockets of new surface on a springtime, low avalanche rating day -- but maybe I'm wrong in this. The climbers probably could have seen the new snow before they reached it, but not necessarily have known how deep it was or how well bonded.
At this point would the "no mistakes" course of action be: turn around? move off to the side away from new surface (what if you can't easily avoid it)? Unless there was a protected spot, I don't know how you're going to assess bonding. And if I reached the base of the slab and found what they found, I'd have done what they started doing... getting out of the way.
Am I missing some other consideration in thinking about this?
First, I don't think you can just rule out travelling up any gully with pockets of new surface on a springtime, low avalanche rating day -- but maybe I'm wrong in this. The climbers probably could have seen the new snow before they reached it, but not necessarily have known how deep it was or how well bonded.
At this point would the "no mistakes" course of action be: turn around? move off to the side away from new surface (what if you can't easily avoid it)? Unless there was a protected spot, I don't know how you're going to assess bonding. And if I reached the base of the slab and found what they found, I'd have done what they started doing... getting out of the way.
Am I missing some other consideration in thinking about this?
No, I do not think that you are missing any considerations here (I boldfaced your key phrase). My point was simply that they needed to make the right decision at the moment that they encountered the unbonded slab, which they were not able to do. I agree that they did everything right once they realized that they were in danger, but it was too late. I also agree that bad luck can happen to anyone, anywhere. And, I agree that there was no way that snow rangers on the floor of the ravine could have predicted a small area of unbonded slab in one gully, hence their "low" avy forecast. Moreover, north-facing gullies and slopes are notoriously difficult to assess, especially from below, as Jeff Lane details in his excellent analysis.
kevinmac
Member
Happy to see that both individuals made it out alive with relatively minor injuries.
Low as the Rangers stated doesnot mean NO avys. Also the incident happened in an area they donot forecast;therefore the climbers were on their own as far as making their own forecast. It seems as though they made the right decisions and were attempting to get out of the way. Wether they could have seen the hazard earlier/lower in the gully and retreated is something we don't know because none of us were there. Although history has shown time and again that the top of Dodge's can load in.
giggy
New member
I am not a avy expert by any means and have had some close calls and probably been a few places I should not have at times.. but you don't expect any avy activity on a day like sat. Thats not to say it won't happen (obviously), but its a favorable risk/benefit profile IMO. If you see an isolated pocket, hopefully you can deal with it.
My point was - it wasn't a bad idea to head up a gully on a day where both ravines were rated low across the board. They hit an isolated pocket - and "stuff happens". This is not a case where things were rated considerable or high and they went up the gully with no beacon, probe, etc..
Most of us here are amatuers, we try and learn as best we can how to judge this stuff and we climb these gullies always knowing there is always the risk this will happen. This isn't golf or the company softball league...
I have mentioned this before, but IMO, the ravines are never 100% safe. Sometimes things are locked up tight, but its minus 30 - your risking forstbite, some days its nice and warm and sunny and your risking falling stuff or avy, etc.. you do the best you can to minizime the risk and thats different for people.
For example, boot spur #3 is an "easy" gully. Probably rated WI2 due to ice bulges - other than that probably WI1 Those that climbed this with me on sat - we could have easily soloed this, but we decided to protect it with pickets due to boilerplate. Thats an individual call depending on your risk threshold , skills, etc..
I am no expert with this stuff, just a dood that does this on weekends, but thats my perspective.
I agree with dr d, skiguy, etc..
My point was - it wasn't a bad idea to head up a gully on a day where both ravines were rated low across the board. They hit an isolated pocket - and "stuff happens". This is not a case where things were rated considerable or high and they went up the gully with no beacon, probe, etc..
Most of us here are amatuers, we try and learn as best we can how to judge this stuff and we climb these gullies always knowing there is always the risk this will happen. This isn't golf or the company softball league...
I have mentioned this before, but IMO, the ravines are never 100% safe. Sometimes things are locked up tight, but its minus 30 - your risking forstbite, some days its nice and warm and sunny and your risking falling stuff or avy, etc.. you do the best you can to minizime the risk and thats different for people.
For example, boot spur #3 is an "easy" gully. Probably rated WI2 due to ice bulges - other than that probably WI1 Those that climbed this with me on sat - we could have easily soloed this, but we decided to protect it with pickets due to boilerplate. Thats an individual call depending on your risk threshold , skills, etc..
I am no expert with this stuff, just a dood that does this on weekends, but thats my perspective.
I agree with dr d, skiguy, etc..
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Woody
Active member
On a nice spring day with posted Low Avy conditions I would not have hesitated to head into the ravine on a day like that. In fact if it was not Easter weekend and my wife wanted me to stay home, I would have been up there myself. I'll have to thank her for that!
Variability Happens! (variable snowpack)
While climbing in Cinema Gully a couple of seasons ago, with my son, I started a couple of small slides. Fortunately without consequence, but still it put a shiver up my back.
Variability Happens! (variable snowpack)
While climbing in Cinema Gully a couple of seasons ago, with my son, I started a couple of small slides. Fortunately without consequence, but still it put a shiver up my back.
cbcbd
Well-known member
They are lucky and I'm glad they are ok. They lived to learn.
I know it's hard to motivate to be in an avy mindset during a nice spring day with posted low danger in other areas (I probably would've done the same), and I'm not condemning anything they did, but IMO, for discussion purposes one could say that if they wanted to be thorough and avy safer they could've:
-traveled staggered, with no one person standing under another's avy path and traveling from protected position to protected position.
-used a rope with running protection - although only effective if the pro was good
-had beacon, probe, shovel
-chosen a different route with better aspect
Nevertheless, I bet they'll be taking an Avy course soon, if they haven't taken one yet. I did after I set off my first slab avy
I know it's hard to motivate to be in an avy mindset during a nice spring day with posted low danger in other areas (I probably would've done the same), and I'm not condemning anything they did, but IMO, for discussion purposes one could say that if they wanted to be thorough and avy safer they could've:
-traveled staggered, with no one person standing under another's avy path and traveling from protected position to protected position.
-used a rope with running protection - although only effective if the pro was good
-had beacon, probe, shovel
-chosen a different route with better aspect
Nevertheless, I bet they'll be taking an Avy course soon, if they haven't taken one yet. I did after I set off my first slab avy
The Lisa
New member
Good points, CBCD. With two people though isn't is hard to call whether to place running pro or not? No doubt it has been discussed ad infinitum here and elsewhere, when to place pro and when to say 'everyone for themselves' when it is two involved. Much as I like the (potenitally lethal) security of running pro I would hate to drag the other down with me.
I get the impression from other Tux frequenters that in spring the likelihood of being buried in an avy is little to none as there is not enough snow volume to bury you, just enough to knock you off your feet and carry you down. This depends on the recent snowfall/windloading, of course.
However, this week in particular, any slides are not going to be deep enough to bury you which is a happy condition for those two guys. EVen so, this weekend I am still going to bring the beacon/probe/shovel with me as force of habit.
I get the impression from other Tux frequenters that in spring the likelihood of being buried in an avy is little to none as there is not enough snow volume to bury you, just enough to knock you off your feet and carry you down. This depends on the recent snowfall/windloading, of course.
However, this week in particular, any slides are not going to be deep enough to bury you which is a happy condition for those two guys. EVen so, this weekend I am still going to bring the beacon/probe/shovel with me as force of habit.
