Humor me.

[forestgnome]

Hello, my name is Forestnome and I'm an "overpacker"...

I've been through the newbie stage, the "it won't happen to me" stage, and the fast-and-light stage. All of that is foolishness.

So my pack weight in summer is 25 lbs instead of 15lbs., or whatever. My weekly 10-15 mile hike is a major part of my exercise, so 10 "extra" pounds is actually a bonus.

I understand the desire to see ill-prepared hikers suffer a non-injurious reality slap. These days, I just appreciate my life in the mountains and I think that 99% of the ill-prepared aren't in the forest very often. Lots of people hike only a few times in their life. I'm blessed, and the fools remind me of that.

Happy Trails, and thanks eternally to all veterans!

 

[blacklab2020]

Preparedness Versus Overpreparedness

That hoopy Douglas Adams? "Now there's a frood who knew where his towel was."

If we follow Douglas Adams advice all we would really need is a towel after all.

The following is in more of a winter context.

I tend to overpack. More recently I have tried to overpack with really light gear (downside is $$$). Ultimately, time will really tell you whether you need that extra base layer or extra headlamp.

I have read this before:
On harder alpine routes "planning for the unplanned bivy" can hold people back... This is primarily true when pack weight is crucial and limiting (e.g. traverses or descents requiring speed to avoid weather/avalanche danger). Is it safer to have the gear to endure the storm or the agility to avoid exposure to the storm? Does taking one sleeping bag and a bivy sac for two versus two independent bivy systems enable you to carry a smaller, lighter summit pack? There is also a pyshcological component to this driving people further. Sometimes taking just enough to survive, albeit not the most comfortably is necessary for success. By doing so though, you assume responsibility for your own risk.

I have been benighted twice on various backcountry peaks, both times underprepared for comfort, but not for survival. 1) 7800 foot 5th class peak, summited too late in the day to find descent route. we were in shorts... desert air hit 41 that night. We tried to build a crude shelter and spooned for warmth all night, rotating. Used climbing ropes to insulate from the ground. 2) Nippletop slide: late start, fog/rain, and injury slowed ascent to a crawl nearing dark. We all had rain gear but no insulation. Food was consumed early that day. I had 3 headlamps!!! The wiring busted on one of them. The bulb blew out on the second. And were left with a tiny LED light to climb through the trees. We huddled all night under a rock. Rain gear and hats were enough to keep us dry and warm enough to survive. In any situation a fire is also an option, if possible. Preparedness is not only in the gear you take with you, but also in your ability to make decisions about survival with what you have.

Earlier I said that I tend to overpack, well ironically, its those times that I dont, that I get caught out somewhere.

Sometimes there is a fine line between being prepared and being overprepared. That line is certainly hard to distinguish in the NE, even with the best weather forecasts and previous knowledge of the terrain.

~J

 

[sli74]

Interesting, How long have you been married?

I would assume that you 2 are married. I believe it is a mating ritual in north america, where the male carries up the female's belonging's in order to impress her.

Hahaha . . . not married actually, still in mating ritual phase but in his defense if he volunteered to carry my stuff, he'd likely get clobbered

I was only joking . . . I have been hiking and backpacking for years before meeting him and he wouldn't dare offend my independence by offering to carry my things.

sli74

 

[DougPaul]

I once saw a couple of day hikers where she had the pack and he was lightly laden...

Doug

 

[BrentD22]

I think the WMNF & New Hampshire as a state...

I think the WMNF Service & New Hampshire as a state should launch a ad campaign of safe hiking. www.hikesafe.com is a start, but more is needed to educate people.

Hiker Responsibilty Code​

You are responsible for yourself, so be prepared:


1. With knowledge and gear. Become self reliant by learning about the terrain, conditions, local weather and your equipment before you start.

2. To leave your plans. Tell someone where you are going, the trails you are hiking, when you will return and your emergency plans.

3. To stay together. When you start as a group, hike as a group, end as a group. Pace your hike to the slowest person.

4. To turn back. Weather changes quickly in the mountains. Fatigue and unexpected conditions can also affect your hike. Know your limitations and when to postpone your hike. The mountains will be there another day.

5. For emergencies. Even if you are headed out for just an hour, an injury, severe weather or a wrong turn could become life threatening. Don’t assume you will be rescued; know how to rescue yourself.

6. To share the hiker code with others.

#6 is interesting in the idea that we are responsible to share the hiker code with others. Does this mean we must give advice to non-prepared hikers? I'm sure you would never be arrested for not doing so, but why is this part of the code?

 

[hikerbrian]

Hmmm. Well, a couple of weekends ago, I found myself at a conference in Tahoe, and as it turns out I had 4 hours of unexpected free time on Saturday afternoon. I took stock of my surroundings and my gear and decided that I would head out towards nearby Mt. Tallack and see where I got. My gear included one fleece top, one precip top, and a pair of wind pants, in addition to the shorts, teeshirt and running shoes that I was wearing. I was starting at ~6700' and Tallack is 9700' or so, and the round trip distance was somewhere around 10 miles. I had no water bottle or food, but I was carrying along a sizable hangover.

I passed many people on the way up, most with nice Gore-tex outer layers, hats, etc. With about 1000' vertical to go the snow became a little bit more of a factor as the few wet inches made the talus underneath somewhat more complicated. On the upside, the snow was very wet at first, and just sucking on it got me a few nice gulps of water and cooled me off a bit.

I reached the summit 1hr 40 after getting on the trail, and the summit was beautiful! Lake Tahoe on one side, the snow-covered Crystal Range on the other. Blue sky with a few cotton ball clouds and white all around. Breathtaking.

Unfortunately, I was not the only person at the top. There was a group of 4 rather monopolizing the summit perch. Oh well, I moved down a little ways and found a nice sunny spot out of the breeze and basked in the sun.

As I continued to ponder the meaning of happiness and take in the beautiful surroundings, I couldn't help but overhear the conversation of the group at the summit. Words like "crazy", "tourist", "unprepared", "cityslicker", etc. with a nod in my general direction rather disrupted my tranquility. Apparently, the fact that I was not wearing my Gore-tex wind shell, gaitors, double plastic mountaineering boots, and carrying two technical ice tools caused these people worry. (note: I'm exaggerating there...)

Some things about the situation were amusing to me. For example, as I had worn very little clothing on the way up and now found myself dry, I was much warmer still wearing my shorts and teeshirt than the group on the summit in the wind looking down their noses at me with their sweat-soaked layers under their Gore-tex. Also, the hike had not been especially taxing for me, although the summit crew was clearly worn out.

The hour or so hike down gave me some time to think about some things, and so I'll humor you with some of those thoughts now.

First, for me, part of the joy of hiking and climbing and backpacking and mountaineering is the freedom and independence that I feel when I'm doing it. I don't have a boss. There is no glass ceiling. I have no time card to punch. I am only me. Second, there are times in life when you leave your standard bag of tricks at home, yet you find yourself in a spot where you still want to work some magic. In those times you can either take a risk and go on with the show, or you can wait until later when you are again "prepared". It's ok to weigh the risks and make your own decision. Third, what is difficult or dangerous or risky to you may quite literally be a walk in the park for someone else. You'll save yourself a lot of worry if you recognize that your way of doing things is just that: your way. No more, no less. It is not the right way. It is not the best way. It is your way.

I recognize that the situation that I have described and the one that plays itself out every Summer weekend on Washington are not perfectly analogous. Nevertheless, I urge you all to stop evaluating others while you hike. Truth is, you know very little about those people, in spite of how sure you are of your own hiking prowess. And that evaluative attitude inevitably takes away from the beauty of your surroundings.

Perhaps I have vented a bit here too, and I apologize for that, but I hope there are some useful nuggets in there.

Peace.

 

[McRat]

Ah, Schadenfreudeus Interruptus- The disappointment that the arrogant and foolish seldom receive their comeuppance due.

As a sailboat junkie, I've had recent discussion about a similar thing. The ocean can be just as an unforgiving and unpredictable place as the peaks. Yet people still head out ill-prepared and keep the Coast Guard busy.

I was given a perfect quote, and I offer it to the group - I feel it applies to hiking as well. Share and enjoy!

"You start out with a full bag of luck and and empty bag of experience. May God have mercy on you if you use up your bag of luck before you fill your bag with experience."

 

[Tim Seaver]

The Terminator vs. the Rock

... Nevertheless, I urge you all to stop evaluating others while you hike. Truth is, you know very little about those people, in spite of how sure you are of your own hiking prowess. And that evaluative attitude inevitably takes away from the beauty of your surroundings.

Well put.

Quite often, there seems to be a tendency to project one's own fears on others in a mountain environment.

A few winters ago, my friend Jon and I were on Mt. Washington, on the section of the Tucks trail just before it dumps you on the auto road - about 10 minutes below the summit. It was a little blustery and the visibility wasn't great, but hardly a killer storm. We encountered a pair of heavily laden hikers descending from the top, who spoke with a heavy "Ahhnold" accent: "You must turn around - there is no time to go to the summit" Their goggles were fogged over, their breathing was labored, and they generally seemed a little freaked out and not at all comfortable being where they were. (All understandable if it's your first time up a mountain with a very scary and well deserved reputation).

We politely "thanked" them for their dire warning, and then proceeded to the summit. About 20 mintues later, we breezed past them on the snow cone summit field as they struggled beneath their massive packs, clanking away with crampons in conditions that didn't require them in the least.

To this day, whenever I am with Jon in a blustery summit situation ( or whenever there is a slight breeze for that matter), I summon up my best Austrian accent and bellow at the top of my lungs " There's NO TIME - you must TURN AROUND..."

I have no problem with people who want to bring everything but the kitchen sink if that is what they want to do, but really don't care for the folks that attempt to foist their practices as the "right" way, while heaping disdain on those who don't think a tent, stove, and sleeping bag are required equipment for a winter day hike. We all have different thresholds for difficulty, fear, and what is acceptable risk.

 

[dr_wu002]

Hahaha . . . not married actually, still in mating ritual phase but in his defense if he volunteered to carry my stuff, he'd likely get clobbered

I was only joking . . . I have been hiking and backpacking for years before meeting him and he wouldn't dare offend my independence by offering to carry my things.

sli74

When I hike with Jess, she carries the stuff she needs and I carry the stuff I need. We generally split the tent: I'll take the tent, she'll take the poles. If I try to carry too much stuff (which I do, occasionally) she'll get grumpy.

FWIW, Jess dated a guy a little while before me and he wanted to go hiking.... she had to strap his overnight pack to hers because he whined too much that it was heavy. And even then, they hiked Washington via. the Ammo as an overnight... about 2 miles into the hike, with no pack, he declared that he was too tired to continue so they set-up camp somewhere off-trail. He only lasted one more hike after that.

Jess is tough and can probably carry as much weight as I can and hike just as far. She's pretty tiny too! It's not that I'm eager to depart with any pack weight (or gain any) but it's nice that we can split things like this.

Now, if we can just convince our cats to carry packs they could finally come hiking with us too -- all 6 of them!!

-Dr. Wu

 

[bruno]

whoa!!! hope you guys never see me!!!! i always look woefully unprepared!! go light and go fast or die!!!!!

water, windshell, fleece, and gloves (especially gloves!!)--even in winter.

 

[SherpaKroto]

When I was younger, and speedier, I was able and willing to carry less, as I could get out of danger much more quickly should it arise. As I age (and start to fall apart, it seems) I find I carry more for my own piece of mind. I feel more comfortable pushing a bit further in marginal conditions knowing I have what I need to make for a reasonably comfortable layover, should one occur. In any event, I feel I could certainly survive...

To me seemingly unprepared hikers fall into 5 categories:
1) the ones who quit altogether after a few hikes,
2) the ones who will eventually smarten up (and then make more informed decisions),
3) the (hopefully) few who will be seriously injured (or worse),
4) the truly "lucky" ones that we all love to hate who will hike with too little gear for years, laughing all the way
5) experienced hikers who understand and weigh the risks, know what they are doing, and accept the consequences.

As we hike, we have no way of knowing which category another hiker falls into. Hopefully, the people we meet all complete their hikes with positive outcomes.

For me, I'll "buy" the insurance policy of the extra gear in my pack, and I then enjoy my experiences a lot more that way. But that is just me, and I cast no judgment on those who choose to do otherwise. Until it puts ME at risk: then it's a whole other ball of wax.

 

[vegematic]

I agree that there are different kinds of "unprepared"...SK's list summarises them well. I'll often speak up, though, if I see someone that looks to me to be hiking into a bad situation. I might say something like "hope you've got a warm sweater with you...it's much colder and windier up high" if their pack is non-existent or looks empty. Folks who are inexperienced and don't care, or who are experienced and have made an informed decision about what's in their pack will usually make it known that they are "all set". Those who are inexperienced and want to know more will stop and chat. I can't recall ever getting a rude reply with this approach.

Why bother? As someone who was a clueless beginner at one time with no hiking partners to learn from I appreciated friendly input from random hikers I met on the trail.
-veg

 

[Nadine]

...and besides, all that extra weight builds character

 

[forestgnome]

On the face of it, he might have appeared woefully unprepared. And, had he slipped and broken a bone, chances are he'd be in trouble. But, in the final analysis, was he taking unnecessary chances?

The answer is all too obvious.

You can't prepare for everything, but those people are prepared for nothing.

We're not talking about a helmet to guard against being struck by a meteor. Each year, someone dies of hypothermia. It usually happens when a hiker gets hurt, therefore immobile, and not because they failed to "outrun" an approaching storm that could be avoided if only the pack was lighter.

The hiker in your example has a great chance of sustaining an immobilizing injury because he was running. After hours on a trail, we are weaker and more likely to fall. If he got hurt toward the end of the day, in November, in his little jogging outfit, he would be dead, unless his life was saved by a passing hiker who was prepared and kind.

I guess you just have to evaluate what your life is worth.

 

[MadRiver]

I’m not certain if this applies to our discussion, but we lost a climber on Sleeping Giant this weekend. He was 24 and wasn’t using any safety gear as he climbed the quarry side of the head of the giant. He fell approximately 150 feet. This comes just a week or two after a woman was rescued on West Rock, also without gear. Since I’m not a rock climber, I will reserve judgment on weather or not this was foolish.

 

[giggy]

Hello, my name is Forestnome and I'm an "overpacker"...

I've been through the newbie stage, the "it won't happen to me" stage, and the fast-and-light stage. All of that is foolishness.

I guess the question here is how do you define "foolishness". I went out sat (washington) knowing what the weather was predicted to be - and had my typical winter day hiking gear including down coat, extra mitts, extra hat, etc.. but I was still pretty light. I did not have a bivy sack, sleeping bag, or food for 6 days.

not challenging you here - but I think there is a certain acceptable risk we take as hikers and climbers and just becuase someone climbing washington doesn't bring the entire EMS store with them - doesn't make them foolish and/or unprepared. My guess is most winter hikers don't take it all with them on day hikes and I think the amount of "issues" compared with amount of summit attempts - is pretty low = acceptable risk.

and - I have had my butt kicked on occassion up there!!

just my 2 cents -


now - what I do think is foolish is what i saw on the jewell trail sat afternoon at about 4500 ft at 1pm - couple heading with kid (less then year old for sure) in child carrier heading up with minimal gear with no crampons where trail was icy. I say think - becuase I don't know them - what they have done or what their intentions where - but as a recent father - I think thats nuts - too cold and too much chance for fall for a baby.

 

[cbcbd]

I’m not certain if this applies to our discussion, but we lost a climber on Sleeping Giant this weekend. He was 24 and wasn’t using any safety gear as he climbed the quarry side of the head of the giant. He fell approximately 150 feet. This comes just a week or two after a woman was rescued on West Rock, also without gear. Since I’m not a rock climber, I will reserve judgment on weather or not this was foolish.

Yes, this was foolish. If he was that good a climber he would've been sponsored by someone. I really don't understand these recent climbers doing it without protection. I guess they just don't want to spend money on the equipment, or what?

 

[hikeritz]

I'm generally the gear guy in my group, but I try to stick to the essentials. I have something that started as a first aid kit and has evolved into an overstuffed, one-stop-shopping survival kit. Bandages, firestarter, mylar emergency blanket, compass, sewing kit, etc. It's always in my pack (though it's getting a bit weighty) but rarely gets used. My security blanket, perhaps. Like Walker, it gives my wife confidence that I'll be okay when I go out solo. It also works for my friend's wives...they know that if I'm on the trip, their husbands will be okay.

On the other hand, my friends used to have a habit of showing up somewhat unprepared. Dinner time would roll around and they'd start asking if anyone had a spare fork, or something to serve as a plate. Toilet paper? They came to me. It used to tick me off, but now I just accept my role as the gear guy. I figure it's the least I can do for them, since they put up with me. And in their defense, they've gotten better about bringing their own stuff.

I will admit to the occassional evil thought (usually involving running out of toilet paper) but it all disappears when I'm able to reach into my emergency bag and pull out the folding scissors or sewing kit or the moleskin and save the day (or at least the hike).

 

[KayakDan]

We go by the piece of advice given to us by the person who introduced us to backpacking..
"You can't put it on if you didn't bring it"

That has served us well over the years.

The best way to guarantee good weather is to carry all your exposure gear in your pack.

I rather enjoy standing there,warm and comfy,in the blasting wind and snow. It makes the effort and judgement to cary al that gear worthwhile.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

What I bring with me varies every time I'm out and is the result of a risk-reward assessment that has nothing to do with what other people are doing and everything to do with what risks I'm willing to tolerate (or not) on a given day.

There's a continuum between two extremes. You can take nothing, which is ideal in terms of pleasurable walking, but then you also take on the highest possible degree of risk and potential discomfort. Or, you can take everything (or as much as you can physically carry), in which case the walking probably isn't very pleasurable but the degree of risk is lowered as much as it can be if you're intelligent about what you want to weigh yourself down with.

Every time I'm out I pick somewhere along that continuum to be. The season and weather obviously has a lot to do with it. I generally prefer to travel light, and in the summer when I'm taking a hike in Connecticut I sometimes take absolutely nothing with me. On the other hand, if I'm climbing up through King Ravine on a weekday in November, I'd be pretty much prepared for anything.

Water is, of course, the heaviest item to carry, and it's that that I stew about the most. I know my body pretty well, and always try to economize with the water. Drinking as much as I can just before I leave my car is a long-standing habit. I never rely on finding water anywhere - I assume I'm going into a desert. But if I'm only going to be our for 4-5 hours I wouldn't dream of carrying 3 or 4 liters. On the other hand, when it's hot I'll take more than I like to carry (but drink it all or dump it before I'm done hiking).