ice axe technique

[DougPaul]

Genuine newbie question:

IF I have a mountaineering axe (straight handle, not for technical ice climbing), AND it has an adze and a pick, THEN there must be some good reason for those two tools, besides making a handle into a giant heat sink which draws warmth away from my hand, adds weight and has protruding, sharp implements.

There are also technical axes with straight handles. (All of my axes, technical, mountaineering, and hiking have straight handles.) (Like skis, all axe designs are a compromise between competing uses.) And yes, you are correct--all points have useful purposes.

Some technical axes replace the adz with a hammer head. These are generally called north wall hammers.

Technical axes/hammers tend to be short--typically 55cm or shorter, moutaineering axes about 70 cm, and hiking axes a bit longer--typically the spike should be about an inch above the floor when held hanging in one's hand. (There are variations, styles, and preferences. Axes used to be up to 200cm when step cutting was the dominant technique for ice climbing.)

I have read that self-arrest involves driving the pick into the snow, with the adze against your upper chest. Clearly there is more to it then this, I mean if the sole purpose were self-arrest, you would have a much more chest-friendly surface opposing the pick, right?

Self arrest is a basic skill for steep snow (eg Lions Head). Classic position: Adz (or adze) above your shoulder (close to your ear), shaft diagonally across your shoulder and chest, spike alongside your hip. Pick pressed into the snow. Upper hand across top of axe head, lower hand down by spike.

There is a lot more to self-arrest than the above--read up on it or get instruction and practice before you really need it. Also a quick sloppy arrest can often be more effective than a slow elegant one that includes a long slide.

You don't want to be pressing flesh against any of the points...

I have also read that the adze is used for fashioning stairs / steps.

The pick is often better for cutting steps (hard ice). The adz can be used for cutting or scooping. Depends on snow/ice conditions, angle, where you are cutting a step, etc.

So, the question I have could best be phrased thusly (and I, along with others I bet, would appreciate multiple responses):

How do you use each of the three pointy parts of the mountaineering axe in the northeast, and in what proportions?

Chouinard lists 9 axe positions (he likes the French names...):
** For snow **
* Piolet canne: use as a cane (held by head and adze). Used on low angle terrain.
* Piolet manche: hold vertically in front of body, one hand on pick and one hand on adz, spike and shaft down in snow. Used on medium steepness snow. (This puts the broad face of the shaft down the fall line to give more support.)
* Piolet panne: pick in snow, hand on adz, shaft lying on surface of snow (pointed downward). Used on steep snow. Can be done with 2 axes, one in each hand.

** For ascending steep ice **
* Piolet ramasse: axe held diagonally with head in front of body, pick away from body, spike in snow/ice off to side. One hand on adz, other by spike. Your body is turned to the side in a rising traverse. Used on moderate ice.
* Piolet ancre: Pick in ice, spike down parallel to surface. One hand across head, one on spike. You can walk your hands up the axe as you climb. Used on steep ice.
* Piolet poignard: hold hand across head, stab pick into soft ice or hard snow. Used on steep soft ice or steep hard snow.
* Piolet traction: Hold axe by shaft next to spike, place pick in ice with a hammer-like swing. Axe is above your head and you may hang from it. Used on steep ice. Usually done with two tools.

** For descending **
* Piolet appui: Place hand on middle of shaft, place spike (pointed down) against the ice and pick in the ice. A balance hold used when descending steep ice or snow. A bit like a portable railing...
* Piolet rampe: Hold axe like a hammer and swing into the ice below you. Lean out on shaft and walk your feet (and hand) down. Used for descending steep ice or snow.

Some of the above axe positions are hard to understand from a verbal description and they are used in conjunction with certain crampon techniques. The pics in the book are much better. Even if you do not understand my descriptions, it should be obvious that the axe can be used in a wide variety of ways.

Other uses of the axe:
* Step cutting (adz, pick)
* Self arrest (pick)
* Glissade control (spike)
* Digging snow caves (if you don't have a shovel) (adz)
* Digging platforms in ice (adz and pick)
* Anchoring tents (spike)
* Probing for crevasses on glaciers. (spike)
* Boot-axe and hip-axe belays (whole axe, but primarily spike and shaft)
* hooking trees (pick)
* clearing ice from the mouth of a water bottle (pick)
* prodding slow partners (spike or flat of head, depending...)

p.s. I'm not interested enough to go read an entire book on the technique just yet, but if there is some disagreement over style and usefulness "in front of the children" then the children would like an explanation

Freedom of the Hills has a short section on the topic, but Chouinard is much better. Many will find the book to be an interesting read, even if they never go ice climbing. And even when hiking, an occasional technical move can be very useful.

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

From this: http://www.hightrek.co.uk/climbing/how2/axe1.htm

I read this:

2. Self Arrest Position: Bring the hand holding the axe up toward the shoulder, letting the head of the axe swivel in your closed fist. The adze should stick into the fleshy part of the shoulder below the collar bone. (snip)

Which is where I saw the part about the adze in contact with the upper chest (it didn't seem too intuitive to me that you would put the adze against flesh, but perhaps weighed against the alternative of free-sliding, and given layers of clothes likely to warrant the axe in the first place...)

I've also read that an axe is not really required in the Whites except for a few routes... Whites are in the northeast, but they are not the entire northeast... It seems like taking one along without real experience could easily become a liability...?

Tim

p.s. Some day I would like to learn to do all of this and give it a try. Some day won't be this winter, however... but all of this stuff is fascinating to me anyway.

 

[DougPaul]

From this: http://www.hightrek.co.uk/climbing/how2/axe1.htm

I read this:

2. Self Arrest Position: Bring the hand holding the axe up toward the shoulder, letting the head of the axe swivel in your closed fist. The adze should stick into the fleshy part of the shoulder below the collar bone. (snip)

Sounds to me like a good way to end up in the hospital.

You want to be able to focus as much weight as possible onto the pick to force it into the snow. This would likely result in shoulder injury if you are pressing on the sharp edge of the adz. (Remember you may also be sliding over bumps and rocks...) Keep the adz above your shoulder and press on the shaft. (You will probably find if you simply hold an axe in self-arrest position, the adz natrually fits in right above your shoulder.) Your clothing, you, and your doctor will be much happier...

BTW, you may also have to worry about the spike. If you are using a short axe it will be right alongside your gut. With a typical mountaineering-length axe (~70cm), the spike is more likely to be alongside your hip--a much safer position.

All of the points of your axe should be sharp. It makes them more dangerous, but also more useful when you need them.

I've also read that an axe is not really required in the Whites except for a few routes... Whites are in the northeast, but they are not the entire northeast... It seems like taking one along without real experience could easily become a liability...?

On most hikes ski poles are more useful. But anywhere that you can slide any distance is a place where an axe can save your life and/or limb. Also the steeper the terrain, the more useful the axe becomes relative to ski poles. Besides, ever try hooking a tree with a ski pole?

Yes axes have sharp points and can cause injury. They are a tool with risks and benefits. You have to learn how to use them and how to use them safely. Just like a knife or a saw.

Doug

 

[TCD]

DougPaul,

Thanks for posting the comprehensive summary of the tetchniques from "Climbing Ice." It should be helpful to any here who have not read or trained no that material.


Bikehikeskifish,

Great questions. Again, I recommend reading Chouinard's book. I also highly recommend taking a good course frmo a qualified school. I had already been leading vertical ice for several years when I finally read "Climbing Ice" and learned about all the marvelous uses of the mountaineering axe. After that, in 1990, I went to the Cascades and took AAI's Advanced Ice Climbing course (6 day course), where I really learned how to use all those many techniques. There is no substitute for "on snow and ice" training from experts. It would be a real mistake to read a book and then think you are ready to self arrest in an emergency situation. You need to learn how, and then practice to stay fresh.

TCD

 

[DougPaul]

There is no substitute for "on snow and ice" training from experts. It would be a real mistake to read a book and then think you are ready to self arrest in an emergency situation. You need to learn how, and then practice to stay fresh.

100% agreed. You need to learn how to do these techniques properly and then, particularly for self-arrest, practice to build the reflexes to do them quickly and properly when the need arises.

The descriptions in my previous post are inadequate in themselves--the techniques will be much clearer from reading Chouinard or a book of similar caliber, and even clearer from a live knowledgeable instructor who can demonstrate techniques and correct errors.

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I have no intention of going out on what I have read alone. Some topics interest me more then others, and I ask lots of questions about them I'm sure I am not the only one who has those questions. I have planted the bug in Mrs. Santa's ear about mountaineering school... except she won't want me away from the house doing dangerous things (any more so then I currently do ) so I'm not likely to receive any such gift this year or next. She keeps telling me (referencing Everest: Beyond the Limits) that "You're NOT going to Everest" (which of course I couldn't conceive of even in my wildest dreams.)

I AM HAPPY that we've cleared up what might be considered dangerous advice (on self arresting) found elsewhere...

Thanks again, Doug!

Tim

p.s. Sorry Paradox -- your thread has been hijacked We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion on axe grippage.
p.p.s. Feel free to send any cycling equipment, technique, maintenance, etc., questions my way so I can answer more questions then I ask

 

[DougPaul]

I have planted the bug in Mrs. Santa's ear about mountaineering school... except she won't want me away from the house doing dangerous things (any more so then I currently do ) so I'm not likely to receive any such gift this year or next.

I dunno... biking seems dangerous to me with all those cars careening around wildly without regard to any nearby bikers. I wear a bright yellow jersey, use very bright lights at night, and still have to dodge them every now and then...

Doug

 

[AOC-1]

Yvon Chouinard's Climbing Ice

Unfortunately, Chouinard's classic, Climbing Ice, was published 30 years ago and is out-of-print. You might get lucky and find it in an old bookstore, and there are used copies on Amazon. But I guess it is considered a collector's item because the cheapest listing is $50. It's a terrific book, with lively writing and great photos. It is the definitive text on French ice climbing technique. But it is out-of-date in its discussion of steep ice equipment and techniques.

 

[Paradox]

p.s. Sorry Paradox -- your thread has been hijacked We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion on axe grippage.

No apology needed. I'm a happy hiker following this thread, collecting references, and considering things to practice. I am considering which shoulder I should eviscerate first: right? .... left?? .... hmmmm.

 

[kmorgan]

Unfortunately, Chouinard's classic, Climbing Ice, was published 30 years ago and is out-of-print. You might get lucky and find it in an old bookstore, and there are used copies on Amazon. But I guess it is considered a collector's item because the cheapest listing is $50. It's a terrific book, with lively writing and great photos. It is the definitive text on French ice climbing technique. But it is out-of-date in its discussion of steep ice equipment and techniques.

I lucked out, myself. I've been looking for this book for about a year and it came up 2 weeks ago like new for $19.99. Great condition. Can't wait to start reading it....

 

[DougPaul]

Unfortunately, Chouinard's classic, Climbing Ice, was published 30 years ago and is out-of-print. You might get lucky and find it in an old bookstore, and there are used copies on Amazon. But I guess it is considered a collector's item because the cheapest listing is $50. It's a terrific book, with lively writing and great photos. It is the definitive text on French ice climbing technique.

A number of other classics have been reprinted--hopefully this one will be too.

But it is out-of-date in its discussion of steep ice equipment and techniques.

True, but this is a predominantly hiking BBS, not the place to go for cutting-edge technical climbing. The techniques described in his book are more appropriate for this audience than the latest and greatest techniques for extreme ice. In fact, I learned Austrian technique (front-pointing on steep ice) better from Jeff Lowe's "The Ice Experience".

While both books cover the full range of techniques for their day (pub 1978 and 1979 respectively), Chouinard covered French technique better and Lowe covered Austrian technique better (IMO).

Doug

 

[giggy]

jeff lowe's ice world is good too. - good size section on snow, low angle alpine ice.

 

[sierra]

Here's my 2 cents. My technical tools always had some kind of tape on the handle. Never on my general mountaineering tool for a couple of reasons. When using the axe in the various stages of general mountaineering, I find the shaft sliding up and down in my hand and I like that, I can move it fast when I need to, also I agree with kevin it inhibits probing. as far a a leash, this is a must imo and begging to differ with Choiurnard, I always have a leash on any tool. I like the way it allows me to crank on the tool when glissading or arresting and also think its very usefull in the self belay technique ( I had the leash catch me once, when I lossed my grip of the shaft in a fall). Not to mention, its alot harder to drop an axe with a properly used leash.

 

[DougPaul]

I always have a leash on any tool.

I dropped a tool once when half-way up an ice climb... (Actually it was stuck in the ice while I was removing a screw and I bumped it.) Fortunately, I carried a third tool.

I always used a leash on my tools when on steep technical terrain so I didn't have to worry about my hand slipping off the tool--also reduces finger fatigue. But after the above, I always used a keeper cord to my harness on steep terrain. The leash alone is generally adequate on terrain that does not require a rope.

My leashes, as described earlier in this thread, are easily removed. I use the leash when needed or remove it when not needed.

Doug

 

[sierra]

doug,
I hear you Loud and clear, I "bumped" into my tool as well on an ascent of "Pegasus" I wasnt about to "french Technique" the final colume which I had started up so I ran in 2 screws and lowered down to the belay, grabbed my one of my buddies axes and continued on. Its funny some things only need to happen to you once heh? The "keeper" cord is a viable option, although I prefer a leash.

 

[DougPaul]

doug,
I hear you Loud and clear, I "bumped" into my tool as well on an ascent of "Pegasus" I wasnt about to "french Technique" the final colume which I had started up so I ran in 2 screws and lowered down to the belay, grabbed my one of my buddies axes and continued on. Its funny some things only need to happen to you once heh? The "keeper" cord is a viable option, although I prefer a leash.

The problem (for me) with a leash without a keeper cord is that I needed to take my hand out of the leash to insert/remove protection--thus the risk of losing a tool. For an unroped climb, I'm happy with just a leash.

Fortunately, I had the third tool and was able to finish without difficulty. And we were able to retrieve my dropped tool later--it was one of the climbs at Frankenstein.

Doug

 

[sierra]

I agree and in fact kept a keeper cord clipped to my harness for that very application, I did not like carrieing a third tool.

 

[TomD]

I'm no expert and it's been a very long time since I took a mountaineering course, but here is what I remember:
We used straight shafted ice axes w/ no rubber on the shaft (not recommended as already discussed earlier); length-about long enough to reach the floor when held down at your side;
Most useful for: three-point support (balance) while climbing and descending snow slopes; anchor for belays; self arrest; we didn't really cut steps-we used crampons, but did learn how to do it
Self-arrest: something you absolutely have to practice-can't really be learned from a book-we did it falling face forward, backwards, head up, head down; you need to be able to stop yourself as quickly as possible-you pick up speed at an alarming rate as soon as you fall. You also need to be able to self arrest if you are on a rope team and one member falls in a crevasse, otherwise you will get pulled in too. Then, you use the axe to set up a belay and rescue pulley system. Another reason not to have rubber on the handle.
Self-arrest position-hand on axe head (in my case, left hand), shaft across your chest at an angle, other hand down the shaft to hold point off the snow (feet up also so you don't catch a crampon point and cartwheel down the hill; all your weight on the axe head to drive the pick into the snow and slow you down.

If you have an axe, take a class; the first time I used one, I got a bit of rudimentary instruction from a friend, but if I had fallen, I would have been pretty well screwed from lack of real knowledge about how to stop myself.

My philosophy is if you think you need an ice axe, you better damn well know how to use it.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

My philosophy is if you think you need an ice axe, you better damn well know how to use it.

This is a good philosophy about just any old tool. Clearly, the sharper / pointer / heavier / more powerful the tool, the more important it is. Proper technique in any endeavor makes it more enjoyable and safer. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. Yada yada yada...

Tim