Illegal Ski Trail Cut ...

[Grumpy]

This link will take you to a Green Mountain Club news release about an illegal ski trail cut on Big Jay last summer.

GMC takes its conservation easement trust obligations seriously, as the story says. Three cheers for GMC.

G.

 

[David Metsky]

Some previous threads -

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18020
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18567

 

[Grumpy]

Thanks, Dave. I must have been asleep at the switch, VFTT-wise. My awareness of this episode was awakened by a GMC newsletter than came in today's e-mail. 'nuff said.

G.

 

[David Metsky]

The film showing in Arlington raised $1500 for the regeneration fund. And we got the word out to over 120 skiers in the audience.

-dave-

 

[Hillwalker]

We call them Violators

This is the sort of thing that AT Corridor Monitors are on the alert for. Along with the cutting of ATV trails, Mtn Bike trails, illegal woodcutting, dumping, and a few other illegal activities. We simply report the activity to the NPS and USFS as appropriate.

We need volunteer Monitors.

 

[timmus]

Very interesting how things goes in VT... That outrageous cut happened in August, we got a very little 8 posts here on vftt, as if nobody cares. But Vermonters get together and raise 1500$ to do the repairs... less than three months later.

Just for fun, anyone wants to compare this with the Couchsachraga saga ??? I understand there is no ski resort in the Santanoni's, but what is it that NY people did about it, except for getting hysteric behind their keyboards ?

 

[Tom Rankin]

Very interesting how things goes in VT... That outrageous cut happened in August, we got a very little 8 posts here on vftt, as if nobody cares. But Vermonters get together and raise 1500$ to do the repairs... less than three months later.

Just for fun, anyone wants to compare this with the Couchsachraga saga ??? I understand there is no ski resort in the Santanoni's, but what is it that NY people did about it, except for getting hysteric behind their keyboards ?

There isn't a whole lot of remediation that can be done to axe blazes, compared to a clear cut. When I went to the Santa's 2x last winter, I did not see very many of the blazes at all. And the ones I saw were no worse than the blazes that are cut in the trees marking the state land boundary!

 

[DougPaul]

But Vermonters get together and raise 1500$ to do the repairs... less than three months later.

Just for the record, this was Boston area skiers.

The benefit movie was shown at an Arlington, MA theater. (Arlington is a few miles NW of Boston.)

Doug

 

[Peakbagr]

Julie,

"but what is it that NY people did about it, except for getting hysteric behind their keyboards"


What we did (VFTT and ADKHPs members) is get screen shots of the self-reported trip, the ISP address, photos of the damage, and then a member here walked the route taking photos of the damage. Multiple people here and on ADKHPs reported the incident to the DEC, assisted in other ways behind the scenes, stayed on top of DEC. The perpetrator rec'd a large Administrative fine with the individual responsible having made public penance and apologies.
Its not $1,500 for remediation, but the fine was the equivalent, and as
Tom said, there is nothing to remediate at that elevation. Your kids will see the blazes decades from now. From what I know, those that assisted, and they did much, it was more than keyboard hysteria.

 

[timmus]

OK, but what about the amount of posts here on vftt ? That's what I found interesting.

It may be MA people who gave money, but who took action first to make this event happen ? You got big sponsors there, with prizes and everything. What I see here is that skiiers brings more money than hikers...

I am not trying to create a debate here, I just want to understand.

 

[griffin]

You got big sponsors there, with prizes and everything. What I see here is that skiiers brings more money than hikers...

I can't comment on the number of posts generated, but in terms of the money raised - I think all your seeing is that you won't raise much money if there's nothing to raise it FOR.

If there's no remediation or repair to do, why would anyone donate to the cause?

 

[albee]

Jay Peak is a particularly popular destination for backcountry skiers. In fact, the "herd path" to the Big Jay summit was cut by the ski area. The bootleg ski trail off of Jay Peak was cut by renegade ski enthusiasts. I don't think it has much to do with hiking, really. The brotherhood of backcountry skiers came together to raise money to fix the problem, since the money has a useful purpose.

When illegal hiking trails are blazed, cut, or maintained here in New England, such as Mt Nancy, Duck Pond, Black Pond Bushwhack, Owl's Head... it gets plenty of discussion on this board.

On Couchsachraga, a group with an axe cut blazes on a herd path on their way out. It wasn't a legal or wise decision, and they are now paying a hefty fine. This is a hiking issue and has been heatedly debated on the hiking forums. I think that right there will tell you why more hikers are upset about Couchie than Big Jay... not everyone here is an avid backcountry skier.

 

[Sugarloafer]

not everyone here is an avid backcountry skier.

You hit the nail on the head.....IMO, at least. I hardly ever see anything ski-related posted in here. In addition, there are a couple of very active backcountry ski-specific forums that get a lot of action. I attended the show in Arlington.....very well organized and the movie was some of the best tele skiing I've ever seen.

It may be MA people who gave money, but who took action first to make this event happen ?

A couple of the regulars in here played a key role in making this event work !

 

[David Metsky]

It may be MA people who gave money, but who took action first to make this event happen ? You got big sponsors there, with prizes and everything. What I see here is that skiiers brings more money than hikers...

This particular event was run entirely by people from the Boston area. There was an immediate need for remediation efforts on the mountain to be performed before winter, so there was a pressing need for action. We have connections with several ski shops, Jay Peak donated the biggest prize because they care about their backyard, and we had a single dynamic organizer who got stuff done.

And while the axe blazes in the Daks were relatively unseen by the general public, the ski gash cut on Big Jay is visible to everyone who skis at the Jay ski area. It's an attraction that is going to draw 100's of skiers this season no matter what efforts are made to prevent them or mitigate the damage. As to interest in the backcountry skiing community; lots of people "trim" terrain in the VT, NH, NY, and ME backcountry. They operate under the radar and no one except skiers notice. But this completely over the top cutting is going to put us all in the limelight. We're trying to get out in front of things and make sure that we aren't restricted from accessing land. This really isn't an issue for hikers.

The biggest reason is that the GMC, who owns the conservation easement on this land, is a non-government organization who has a vested interest in protecting their investment. The DOC in NY has a different relationship to their land - not better or worse, but different. Raising money wasn't really a concern.

 

[Peakbagr]

Julie,

My view is that its apples and oranges.
As was said, there was nothing to remediate and a number of people who were very concerned did what they could.
The hacking was a high visibility act of vandalism along one of the classic ridge walks in the ADKs and many responsible people vented their feelings and did what they could to assist DEC.
I'm only replying to what more could have been done.
And Tim and his gang were up to their armpits in assisting as well.

There is some significant thread drift from G's original post and it would be good if we didn't get everyone going again about the Couchy thing.

 

[timmus]

The biggest reason is that the GMC, who owns the conservation easement on this land, is a non-government organization who has a vested interest in protecting their investment. The DOC in NY has a different relationship to their land - not better or worse, but different. Raising money wasn't really a concern.

Thanks David, that is a satisfying anwser.

You hit the nail on the head.....IMO, at least. I hardly ever see anything ski-related posted in here. In addition, there are a couple of very active backcountry ski-specific forums that get a lot of action.

I admit, I know absolutely nothing about backcountry skier's. Maybe I should pay a visit to one of those forums...

As was said, there was nothing to remediate and a number of people who were very concerned did what they could.

I'm not pointing at the small proportion who did everything, it's more about the web people that just went crazy here. In the VT case there was basically no reaction.

Can we say that vftt hikers didn't care much because that case was related to skiing ? I think everyone who enjoy the mountains should feel concern about illegal cutting, that's it.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

This is a minor point, but in regards to the GMC owning land: I've always understood the GMC owns very little land. Rather, they get involved with the purchase of land, especially on the Long Trail and feeder trails, they create conservation easements, and then turn the land over to the state of Vermont. For many years under the Dean administration (may have been others, before and since) the VT legislature appropriated $$ (about $100,000/year IRRC) which they used for land acquisition. Since the GMC would turn over any land purchased to the state after the easements were created, it seemed like a win-win for just about everyone as in effect, the money is being used to add land to the Vermont state parks system.

This has been the process, in layman's terms, as has been explained to me. If someone here's a lawyer and is able to better explain the GMC's relationship to the land, please feel free to. The GMC is a small organization, with limited members, and doesn't have the funds to pay property taxes on extensive holdings. But it does, through lots of dedicated volunteers, monitor lands that it has conservation easements on.

Timmus - the ski trail cut on Jay has gotten regular coverage in the Vermont press. I've followed the story in the online version of the Times-Argus. The Forest and Parks Dept is investigating, and if it hasn't already, is expected to press charges.

 

[Toe Cozy]

volunteer opportunity

I also got this GMC e-newsletter yesterday and thought about posting an updated reminder here with the same link you put Grumpy. Good idea to bring it back into the collective hiker radar. If anyone is looking for opportunities to give back to the woods and habitat maybe you could contact the person in charge of volunteer projects for the Jay Mtn. area via the link Grumpy posted. I love these here Green Mountains and would like to spend more time in them and protecting them. I will be contacting the club to see how I can help either in the restoration project or in corridor monitoring. I know Hillwalker is looking for people to do this for the AT. This incident had slipped out of my mind. Thanks for the reminder Grumpy.

 

[Peakbagr]

I'm not pointing at the small proportion who did everything, it's more about the web people that just went crazy here. In the VT case there was basically no reaction.
Can we say that vftt hikers didn't care much because that case was related to skiing ? I think everyone who enjoy the mountains should feel concern about illegal cutting, that's it.

I certainly don't disagree.
My guess, few saw it. I'm here all the time and I missed it completely. I'm thinking those who are here less often also missed it.

There may also be others who saw it as another renegade ski trail. There are certain backcountry skiiers in the ADKs who have been cutting their own ski trails for decades. We seen 'em, and no one seems to know who cuts them. Part of the landscape and that, unfortunately might be the scenario also.

 

[Rik]

There isn't a whole lot of remediation that can be done to axe blazes, compared to a clear cut. When I went to the Santa's 2x last winter, I did not see very many of the blazes at all. And the ones I saw were no worse than the blazes that are cut in the trees marking the state land boundary!

I went soon after the blazing was done and found it to be hideous. I also went back this summer and noticed that although the cuts were not as fresh they were still there and still ugly. Legally marking a boundary and illegally blazing a trail are not comparable in my opinion.
Last week I also noticed relatively new (this year) blazes on the Allen path between the gravel pit and Skylight brook. They were very prominent at the point where the markers become scarce and not very well done in my opinion. I do not know who made the blazes or with what authority but they are ugly, unnecessary, and I'm not sure much can be done to "fix" them.