jay peak recent info?

[ctsparrow]

I'm mulling over different scenarios for this weekend and Jay and Big Jay came into my radar. Any recent info on conditions/ trailfinding (to Big Jay) would be helpful.(i have downloaded bob & geri's topoand info). The ski resort reports 6" freshies and snow showers expected sunday...thus i read reduced visibility.

This may be a moot point as i may do a low level hike with my son on sunday instead if he makes it north after saturday hockey games.

thanks in advance..ctsparrow

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I don't have info on recent snow conditions there, but as far as the route goes - it's a veritable highway. Just cross over from the Jay Peak Ski area boundary, in the general direction of Big Jay and voila'. Due to a 'misunderstanding' a few years ago, the ski area cut a rather wide trail between the two summits. With the help of the Green Mountain Club, it all got settled. But in the meantime, it's one of the easier NEHH to climb.

 

[David Metsky]

If you go to Big Jay and you aren't on skis, you're missing out on some of the best skiing out there. Jay got pounded this week, lots of fresh snow (2 feet since Wed) and with the wind a lot of that got blown into the trees. You'll be seeing lots of skiers back there this weekend.

-dave-

 

[jrbren]

For what it is worth, they are saying they received 3 feet in the last seven days in their radio ads on Montreal sports talk radio this morning. I think this is beleivable since it is Jay, and there is a Low pressure system that has stalled in Canada that is keeping the weather the same for New England for the next week or so (cloudy in the north, sunny in the south, north wind everywhere). I do not know if that 3' included man made snow, probably does.

 

[David Metsky]

I do not know if that 3' included man made snow, probably does.

Nope, no man made anymore, it's too late in the season. That's the Jay Cloud, huge dumps of snow when no one else in New England gets any. You'll need snowshoes or skis to make this trip, and skis are a lot more fun.

-dave-

 

[Mattl]

Yesterday Jay reported 18-19 inches of new snow, which is impressive..... NWS had a coop observer report from jay peak the same day and he reported 10 inches... hmmm That is a sliiight difference. Jay does get a lot of snow, but they have a very big reputation and they have to uphold that. I heard that they wipe off the board and measure every hour, so that it gets super inflated and fluffy. As well as measure all over the mountain. I am always skeptical of jay.. Wish I had recording stations on the Twinway and Mount Hancock...Then we could see.. - -Mattl

 

[David Metsky]

You tell me: http://jaypeakresort.com/page.asp?intNodeID=16138

http://jaypeakresort.com/page.asp?intNodeID=16139

The ski reports (from skiers, not the resort) are pretty clear that this is a big snowfall, definately in the 20"+ range.

-dave-

 

[Mattl]

Just saying sometimes it happens..-Mattl

 

[ctsparrow]

thanks all...hopefully those skiers et al, will be packing the heck out of the trail, as i really don't want to break 3' snow solo!!

that would be a turnaround day!!
ctsparrow

 

[HH1]

I've been keeping an eye on the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's snowfall map for a number of years now.

In the elevated regions of the northeast, there are two specific locations that receive significantly above average snow accumulations year in year out - the Tug Hill Plateau just west of the Adirondack Park in New York and the Vermont's Jay area.

Here's this year's to date:

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/nerfc/graphics/snowmaps/html/seasonal_snowfall.html

The only argument that can be made that Jay does NOT receive the snow amounts as illustrated on the NOAA's site is that its data source is corrupt, something I really doubt given the high credibility of this particular organization. And even if this was the case, surely the other big ski centres like Stowe and Killington wouldn't have put up with the exaggerated snowfalls for so long.

However, I can't find any technical source that clearly explains why Jay receives the amounts it does. Much talk about the 'Jay Cloud' that Dave refers to and that can be found on downhill ski pages, but only a few amateur anecdotes about what might cause it.

Certainly, Tug Hill Plateau's big accumulations are due to lake effect snow.

If anyone has a good scientific/technical source or two, please post the URL(s).

Perhaps by doing so you will finally end the annual Jay debate!

Cheers

 

[Kevin Rooney]

The only argument that can be made that Jay does NOT receive the snow amounts as illustrated on the NOAA's site is that its data source is corrupt, something I really doubt given the high credibility of this particular organization. And even if this was the case, surely the other big ski centres like Stowe and Killington wouldn't have put up with the exaggerated snowfalls for so long ... However, I can't find any technical source that clearly explains why Jay receives the amounts it does.

The notion that Jay doesn't get a huge amount of snow is silly. Ask any Vermonter who lives in the area. But, it is largely localized, much like the Tugg plateau. To suggest that Jay DOESN'T receive a lot of snow is analogous to suggesting that Florida doesn't receive sunshine because you're not there to see it.

As to why Jay gets lots of snow, similar to the Tugg Hill Plateau? It's been well-established that the large uplift of moist air off the Great Lake causes the higher snowfall on the Tugg. Lake Champlain is the largest lake after the Great Lakes, and is located west of Jay, in the path of prevailing winds. I suppose we could await expensive "scientific" studies (like the ones just out that say the leading cause of obesity is overeating & lack of exercise...duh) or simply note that the prevailing winds, slope of the land, amount of nearby water are very similar to the Tugg, note the obvious similarites, and quietly fire up the snowblower.

 

[grouseking]

I just spoke with a friend who has been on the slopes all of her life. She recently went up to Jay and said that there was so much snow she kept falling thru the powder. Suffice to say, she was in awe. So, definitely, Jay does recieve tons of snow, definitely more snow than any other recording ski area in the east, and possibly more snow than all mountains in New England. (I would debate Mount Washington gets more, considering most of their snow blows off the summit before it can be recorded. I also wonder how much snow the upper elevations the Hancocks receive , as well as the ridge from Garfield all the way to Guyot. I'm willing to bet they at least approach Jay's total.)

If you notice though (lots of ski areas do this), check out Jay's web site Jay Peak . Thru 6am on 3/19, it says Jay had recieved 4-6 new inches of snow...and they put that as 6 inches. Then is says they've recieved another 2-4 inches since 6am....which means 6-10 inches today...or what they'll most likely do is just put down 10 inches. I would think that this explains Jay's ridiculous 364 inch total to date. It is probably much closer to that NWS map that was shown earlier in this thread....in the 250 inch range. Needless to say, people are still swimming in powder up there, and a few inches of snow per day with 20 degree temps add up to quite a nice skiing atmosphere I would imagine. But I don't ski.

 

[king tut]

i did a quick little walk up to smuggler's notch today and there did not seem to be much snow in the woods. Maybe a foot or so base in the woods. It has been lightly snowing all week but no real accumulation. Jay must have some strange freak snow clouds up there. Even in the far north in Newport last weekend the ground was pretty bare. Maybe i will have to go check out Jay some time soon and see if this is all true.

 

[HH1]

A couple of really good insights into the Jay phenomenon, the latter specific to just the past few days, courtesy Jim Roemer a.k.a. Dr. Weather.

http://www.jaypeakresort.com/page.asp?intNodeID=16379

http://www.letstalkweather.com/weblogs/entry.php?u=drweather&e_id=256

 

[Sugarloafer]

I skied Jay on Thursday, Friday and Saturday (3/15 through 3/18) and for whatever its worth here's my perceptions :

1) Jay got "pounded" Wednesday and Thursday; however it was a lot closer to 15 inches than the 2 feet they reported on the internet. No question they get more snow than anyone in the East, but they use a certain amount of spin control like everyone else. Their interent report did not mention the snow they lost early in the week due to torrential rain.

2) Thursday was THE day...freshies, no crowds but the Tram and the Freezer were on windhold most of the day. Sweet skiing !!

3) Conditions deteriorated Friday and Saturday. It continued to snow some, but nothing was sticking on the mountain and although the wind blew snow into the trees, the coverage in there was still thin. Regardless of recent snowfall, that mountain is absolutely bullet proof under the powder stashes. Most of the open trails were very icy and the woods got tracked out fairly quickly (Saturday was a mob scene, due to the report of 2 feet of snow) , which made them icy, but skiable. Pay attention to advice that says you need to be an expert skier in the woods.

4) Wind and cold ruled the day. If you go, gear up for frigid weather and expect windholds for the Tram and the Freezer (I mean Flyer ).

 

[Gator]

This is from Jim Roemer; the guy is an absolute kook, and his forecasting is suspect at best, but I think his explanation of Jay's snow is reasonable. Here's some excerpts:

Nor'easters tend to slow down as they come into eastern Quebec or New Brunswick, which means Jay Peak often benefits from several more hours of snowfall than its neighbours downstream. ...

The well-established Vermont myth that lake effect snows never occur is false. Lake Champlain and other bodies of water were not frozen in December so the cold air that came over the warm waters increased evaporation and the amount of moisture in the atmosphere, which resulted in amplified snow amounts. During a normal winter, Jay's close proximity to Lake Champlain, the St. Lawrence River, Lake Ontario, and several other rivers and lakes in Quebec contributes at least 20% of the mountain's annual snowfall. The heaviest, most persistent lake effect snows occur during warmer than normal winters, when the lakes are not frozen and occasional bursts of cold air come over the warm waters. Case in point, on March 24th, 2001 Jay Peak was pounded with some 2 feet of snow in less than 12 hours, while resorts just 30-50 miles away saw considerably less accumulation. ...

Jay seems to receive more snow from orographic uplift than any of its neighbours in New England. This can be explained in two ways: firstly, since Jay is further north the air tends to be colder and secondly, while the Adirondacks and Catskills can sometimes "rob" incoming moisture from progressing into the Green and White Mountains, the mountains to the west and north of Jay are much smaller and therefore, less efficient moisture thieves.

Jay doesn't actually get all that much more than Stowe or Smuggler's Notch. The summit area of Mansfield probably gets almost as much as Jay. I'm pretty sure those places get considerably more than anywhere in the whites.

 

[tonycc]

Not to confuse legend with facts , here are some official tallys for Vermont:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/ussc/SCoptions11?state=Vermont&short=43

And given Jay Peak affectionado's always challenge the Tug Hill Plateau snow fall claims:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/ussc/SCoptions11?state=New York&short=30

There are other stats available on those websites, overall pretty comparable between the Vermont Peaks, and between VT peaks and Tug Hill.

If you dig deep enough, the mountains win in the fall and spring (makes sense since temps are correlated to elevation) but the Plateau wins in winter.

Anyway you cut it, that's a lot of snow!

Tony

 

[Mattl]

To say several things..First. You cant go at all by the noaa snow totals that was linked up above, they do not account whatsoever from what the higher elevations of the whites have, they seem to only account for mount washington. I know because if you look at 24 hour accumulations and snow depth, they never get what actual acounts are( from backcountry huts for example), seems it only does the lower elevations. Jay does get a lot of snow as well as mount mansfield, but remember, the Whites are farr bigger then the greens, and we have very little recording that gets back. Places like the twinway between guyot and south twin gets absolutely hammered, my opintion the most snow in the Whites, rivaling vermont. Just look at the recent trip reports from there or go see yourself. They sit at the perfect upslope situation, which a lot of the whites dont have. Most of the whites are jumbled, but the twinway is linear and is the perfect spot. The other areas as like Mount Pierce, which do as well. Our best mountains for upslift dont have ski areas or recording stations, most or all of vermonts do. I agree that jay gets hammered, but dont forget some of the whites that do as well. Look at this, the record yearly snowfall for vermont is mount mansfield (http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/ussc/SCoptions11?state=Vermont&short=43) at 350 inches of something, when jay reports over 400 inches a year all the time..hmm -Mattl

 

[Kevin Rooney]

but remember, the Whites are farr bigger then the greens

You might want to double-check this statement. Some sources, such as peakbagger.com, list the Greens in VT are twice the size of the Whites in NH.

Based upon my own experience in the ADKs, Greens and Whites, the ADKs get FAR more snow than either the Greens or the Whites. IMHO these second two ranges get, on average, about the same amount of snow. There are local microclimates, like Jay Peak and Franconia Notch, which are notable exceptions, but these are localized.

 

[skiguy]

This is from Jim Roemer; the guy is an absolute kook, and his forecasting is suspect at best, but I think his explanation of Jay's snow is reasonable.

An abosolute Kook with anImpressive Resume for the meterology field.

Sorry Gator but I disagree. I have followed Jim Roemer for YEARS and he is way more on target than the average meterologist.
As for Jay Peak and the snow...ski it and you will believe it. This subject comes up on this board time and again. Always the same bottom line...They get more (no matter how much) than anybody else.