Lost Hiker on Mt Lafayette - FOUND!

[forestgnome]

Well Put.
There isn't anything that anyone can benefit and learn from his unfortunate mishap. It's the individual hikers themselves, who learned from this experience.

I disagree. Many people read this and other hiking-related websites who are beginners. They want to learn. I'm glad that you are experienced enough to not fall prey to such conditions, but obviously, not everyone is. Part of educating about a danger involves describing the consequences, and how to anticipate and avoid such danger. Sure, some like to challenge danger and tempt fate, blah, blah, but there are many more regular folks who are interested in learning more about hiking in winter, but are not the "extreme trekking" type.

Posters on this thread have all been respectful. I hope you're not implying any impropriety on our part.

 

[Skyclimber]

Posters on this thread have all been respectful. I hope you're not implying any impropriety on our part.

I'm not implying anything just stating my opinions.

 

[giggy]

I don't think anyone is being disrepectful or anything like that or claiming to be an expert - just different POV's.

 

[una_dogger]

I've been following this thread with great interest, and I've learned many things. I don't feel experienced enough above treeline in winter to analyze what mistakes or good decisions this young hiker made, but I can say that this topic has brought alot of wisdom to the fore and I thank those who have shared it with the board.


I read recently in the book "Not without Peril" that lost hikers seldom look into the direction of the wind. That, and some very related comments made by some here really stuck with me. I would have never thought of that, and could see how easily I could make a mistake like that if I were lost.

 

[sli74]

discussion is good - but I guess just I don't see what is to be learned here.

So - for the average hiker or climber here? - what did you really learn that you didn't already know from this event?

Well Put.
There isn't anything that anyone can benefit and learn from his unfortunate mishap. It's the individual hikers themselves, who learned from this experience.

I am baffled at the number of people who seem to imply they know all there is to know and further shocked that people assume everyone out there knows everything there is to know and learn. I learned quite a bit, actually and I am far from inexperienced.

I learned that I should carry my map and compass in a more accessible place. I learned that it highly likely that even when you know you the area like the back of your hand (Dr. D's very eye-opening post), you can be disoriented by the direction of the wind and get lost . . .

I guess if you guys didn't learn anything, that is fine but I STRONGLY disagree that there is nothing to be learned. Not everyone is as experienced and learned as you and these discussions might be helpful to them.

I would also hope that free thinking and expression of thoughts in a CIVIL manner as HAS BEEN DONE in this post is allowed and encouraged in this free country we are lucky enough to live in . . .

sli74

 

[ROCKYSUMMIT]

Sli, I totaly agree. I don't think people's comments have been insensitive or with some kind of evil intent. I just think that there's always something you can pick up on regardless of one's level of experience. Getting disoriented happens. I remember a Catskill hike after a heavy ice, wind, and wet snow storm that left the woods full of blow down. Visibility was somewhat limited due to the beautiful, heavy accumulation on every little tree and limb. I've been on this trail easily 100 times and got turned around avoiding numerous fallen trees to the point that I needed my compass. Couldn't believe that I could become so confused in an area so familiar to me. And this was far from white-out conditions.

 

[Mike P.]

We should learn something new everyday, if not in a hiking thought, maybe a new shortcut on the way to work, or learn something new about ourselves or our world.

If you feel you can't learn from other peoples experience, didn't you waste your time in school? Those who don't learn from history are sure to repeat it.

I will agree some things you need to learn on your own & those things you tend to remember more but I'm okay reading about the more painful things like falling from a great height will hurt or worse.

 

[giggy]

I never said nor implied that I am mr experience and know everything. In the grand scheme of things, I consider myself, very inexprienced.

I guess I just see lots of tip toeing around the real issue of why this event happened in the first place.

Thats great if you want to carry gear more accessible, But I don't see how that would have made this situation any better. Sorry - I mean no offense, I just don't see it.

 

[MadRiver]

The one thing that I learned is who NOT to hike with. Learning is an ongoing process throughout one’s life and to suggest that one cannot learn from another person’s experiences is just plain hubris.

 

[dvbl]

Despite my best efforts to know it all, and to be immune from learning from others' mistakes, I humbly admit that I failed...I learned the following:

I will now memorize (or tape to the bottom of my compass) the compass direction(s) needed to get off the hill in zero visibility. This technique had never occured to me before someone mentioned it or at least alluded to it in this thread. I will bet the rent that I'm not the only one reading this who's gotten turned around on a summit in low visibility, and who could've benefited from this technique.


On a side note, I learned that SLI74 has this annoying habit of stealing all my good thoughts before I can use them, and she expresses them much more clearly than I can.

I also learned that Mike Tyson's quote about boxing applies equally well to mountain climbing: "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face."


And to the poster who said, This shouldn't be a learning experience on someone else's expense.
"The best learning experiences are our own experiences."

Well, in a perfect world, that might be so. But in all walks of life, alot of the most valuable learning experiences are indeed at someone else's expense. Whether it's law, medicine, engineering, or mountain climbing. That's just the way it is.

 

[giggy]

I will now memorize (or tape to the bottom of my compass) the compass direction(s) needed to get off the hill in zero visibility. This technique had never occured to me before someone mentioned it or at least alluded to it in this thread.

I would love to see you follow a compass bearing into a 80 to 100mph sustained wind with very limited visibilty. My post was directed at saying relying on these issues will likely not safely get you out of a situation in like this fellow encountered - but rather focus on avoiding that situation. Freak storms are one thing - this is another. I fully understand - stuff happens, maybe I am off topic, maybe its too harsh, - but many of the best calls are made prior to leaving the car.

maybe I am seeing the tone of the last 15 pages hinting towards - if you do this and have this - you will be fine on a day like that that saturday. maybe maybe not.


I am not the one using sacrcasm and calling folks out.

 

[David Metsky]

[mod had]
Tweeeeet! Ok everyone, settle down for a moment.

It's perfectly acceptable to hold differing opinions. No one should be attacked for that. Please keep the conversation civil and constructive.
[/mod hat]

Now, I don't believe that anyone is saying that you can travel above treeline in a whiteout with 100 MPH winds safely. This group made some serious mistakes, and it cost them. They also did some things right, and it helped save them from more serious injury.

But examining how they came to make those decisions can be very useful to help recognize those traits in ourselves and help prevent them from happening. I think most folks understand that it was very unwise to go up there in 100 MPH winds. But when the winds are 40 MPH you can still encounter some of the same difficulties and this discussion could help them understand how to prepare and avoid getting lost or separated. It certainly opened some eyes about what gear is adequate in winter for emergency use. I learned some tricks about carrying compass and map. And sometimes just a reminder of how narrow our margin for error is in winter is a good thing.

No one here (that I can see) is denying that these folks shouldn't have been up there that day. There were several opportunities to turn around that they should have heeded, but didn't. Understanding how hikers make decisions, especially in groups, can be a real eye opener.

-dave-

 

[Skyclimber]

I am baffled at the number of people who seem to imply they know all there is to know and further shocked that people assume everyone out there knows everything there is to know and learn. I learned quite a bit, actually and I am far from inexperienced.

I learned that I should carry my map and compass in a more accessible place. I learned that it highly likely that even when you know you the area like the back of your hand (Dr. D's very eye-opening post), you can be disoriented by the direction of the wind and get lost . . .

I guess if you guys didn't learn anything, that is fine but I STRONGLY disagree that there is nothing to be learned. Not everyone is as experienced and learned as you and these discussions might be helpful to them.

I would also hope that free thinking and expression of thoughts in a CIVIL manner as HAS BEEN DONE in this post is allowed and encouraged in this free country we are lucky enough to live in . . .

sli74

This is a Free Country in which I too, have the Freedom to speak what I think.
This hiker was dissected for his "error of margins" and certainly wasn't given a Prayer in the world. He was ripped apart from head to toe literally, making him sound like he was an idiot!

I also however, am far from an inexperienced Winter Hiker. I never implied I was such the experienced/know it all hiker but rather stated opinions of my thoughts on this situation.

Many are certainly missing the boat on what I meant by, "The best learning experience is your own experiences." One does learn more from their own mistakes, than someone else's, as it is the experience itself that one benefits and learns from. It is the climber himself that will get more out of this experience than anyone else will. "What can you learn from this experience?" There honestly isn't much that can be learned, except as others claim where to carry their map and compass. That actually is not a whole lot, that the hiking community took away from this man's ordeal. Sometimes in whiteout conditions the compass doesn't always work. I know, I was in a whiteout on Gray Peak about ten years ago. The compass went haywire and we were walking around in circles for almost two hours before we got oriented once again!

A person can read all the Guidebooks and Stories they want about hiking, learn what they should or should not do. Bottom line, "Common Sense" is the key words above treeline in Winter and knowing when to turn back. This man did turn back but had the unfortunate mishap of losing his way on the way down. It sounds like he took a wrong turn and every one of us, I'm sure is guilty of that! When one gets into a dangerous and difficult situation out there, everything you have read and learned does not magically appear. The instincts of human nature takes over and one does whatever they need to do, in order to survive.

 

[lamerunner]

I have followed this thread with great interest, largely because this hiker was not, or did seem to be, the classic "jeans and sneakers" beginner who gets into trouble. Yes, he undertook more than was prudent in terrible weather, but apart from that, the things which went wrong could have happened to many of us. It is a good reminder of how important it is to be prepared and most of all perhaps when to bag a hike. I was on the top of a ski race hill that day for several hours and that was grim enough!

It would be especially interesting to hear from the hiker himself.

 

[pedxing]

It's hard not to be emotional about this. When there is a rescue or death or accident in the Whites its natural to ask, "Could it have been me?" "What separates this person from me? "How can I reduce the chance that it would be me?" I find myself both identifying with the victim and wanting to separate myself from the victim. If some of us go to excesses in identifying with the victim and try to defend them from criticissm, its udnerstandable. Hopefully we can be tolerant of that. If some of us are excessive in wanting to distance ourselves from the victim and get a little negative in our tone, I think we should be tolerant of that, too. The topic is intense.

I do agree that the point of the discussion is to learn what we can, to know what risks are avoidable for us when we go out there and how we can avoid them, but also what risks are unavoidable when we go out there. Risk is inherent and often part of the excitment and fellowship. I admire those who share their embarassing mistakes so that others can learn.


As for learning at the expense of others, lets do it! The price has already been paid. If I'd gone through all that, I'd hope some good could come out of it.

 

[dvbl]

I would love to see you follow a compass bearing into a 80 to 100mph sustained wind with very limited visibilty...

Maybe you'd love to see it, but you never will, because I don't plan on going above treeline in 80MPH+ sustained winds with low visibility.

This paragraph is from my previous post...

I will now memorize (or tape to the bottom of my compass) the compass direction(s) needed to get off the hill in zero visibility. This technique had never occured to me before someone mentioned it or at least alluded to it in this thread. I will bet the rent that I'm not the only one reading this who's gotten turned around on a summit in low visibility, and who could've benefited from this technique.

I now see I should've been more clear. I wasn't talking about killer winds and blowing snow and frigid temps. I was talking about being on a summit at any time of year, even on a 75F summer day, but with zero visibility. Knowing the correct compass direction for descent in that situation wouldn't save my life necessarily, but it might keep me from heading down in the wrong direction. I was illustrating that I learned something from this thread, not necessarily a life-saving technique, but I still learned something cool.

Thanks for pointing out that more clarity was needed on my part.

 

[Neil]

I went back to the first post and read pretty well everything (except maybe for the exchange on how much pressure the wind creates at 5K feet) over again.

I think there is much more to be learned through the various discussions about map and compass, boots, the difficulty of navigating (by any means, I'm sure) that ridge in those conditions than there is in studying the specific event that has served as a catalyst for those discussions.

As regards the debate about whether the analysis of the event has anything to teach us or whether our own experience is the best teacher I believe the answer is the middle ground. Skyclimber alludes to this in her most recent post.

I know that my accumulated outdoor experiences help me a great deal in being able to extrapolate in a meaningful and productive way from other people's experiences. For instance, I have never hiked in the conditions that have been described in this thread. However, I have hiked on Franconia Ridge and I have been out in pretty heavy winds at very cold temperatures. (I was knocked down on my face by strong winds on top of Gothics.) These previous experiences enable me to appreciate and learn more from what I have read here than if I was just beginning to hike. I can visualize it quite vividly.

It is easy to think of many more examples where a person can build on their current knowledge base more effectively by only reading or listening if they already have previous similar experiences.

(Addendum: In very cold weather I usually carry warm booties plus overbooties along with some chemical footwarmers. My feet get cold so easily....)

 

[Stan]

I mentioned in an earlier post that it is not hypocrisy to discuss and learn from an event like this and it certainly has maintained a civil tone. I'd like to pile on with another lesson.

It is good practice to have a bailout plan when traversing ridges, even in summer when the danger instead is a fast approaching thunderstorm. While I ponder my maps before a trip I must admit I don't always list the escape routes or courses ... but it is ever in the back of my mind. The greater the risk or responsibility associated with a hike, the more important it is to rigidly adhere to thorough preparation.

... and no doubt in my mind, I would have descended west.

 

[DougPaul]

I will now memorize (or tape to the bottom of my compass) the compass direction(s) needed to get off the hill in zero visibility. This technique had never occured to me before someone mentioned it or at least alluded to it in this thread. I will bet the rent that I'm not the only one reading this who's gotten turned around on a summit in low visibility, and who could've benefited from this technique.

[pure speculation]
My guess is that the victim knew that he needed to take a left turn off the ridge to get onto the trail down. However, he needed to be looking into the wind to find the turn and this difficulty may have helped him to miss it.
[/pure speculation]
If my above speculation is correct, knowing the exact compass bearing/being able to accurately follow a compass bearing might not have helped in this case.* Finding the turn would have.**

This is a situation where a GPS might have been useful. Franconia Ridge is pretty well defined--it is pretty easy to stay on it. But if you miss a landmark in bad weather (or simply fear that you have missed the landmark), you can lose track of where you are on the ridge. Do I go N or S to find the trail junction?

* Accurate compass bearings can certainly be useful in other situations. Just knowing west from north (easily done with any compass) might have been enough here.

** The immediate summit of Lafayette is somewhat complex. Others have missed the Greenleaf Tr or mistakenly headed N on the ridge when they wanted to go down. Once you find Greenleaf Tr, it is pretty well marked (rock walls on both sides, IIRC).

Events such as this also underline the desirability of everyone in the party knowing the route, the route options, and having and knowing how to use basic navigation tools. (We have no evidence that this was a problem in this case.) One can end up separated from the party without warning. This can particularly be a problem with beginners.


I suspect that most of us have missed a turn or made a wrong turn at some point. (I certainly have.) Its what you do next that counts.

Doug

 

[sli74]

This is a Free Country in which I too, have the Freedom to speak what I think.

I went back and reread what I wrote and never once did I say or even imply that you weren't entitled to your opinion or freedom to speak so I don't understand your above comment.

This hiker was dissected for his "error of margins" and certainly wasn't given a Prayer in the world. He was ripped apart from head to toe literally, making him sound like he was an idiot!

Here is where we begin to disagree . . . I don't think the above statement is true at all. I actually think that besides his choice to head up there in the predicted conditions, none of his choices made him look like an "idiot" . . . in fact he made some very beneficial choices, as have been pointed out prviously in this thread and those beneficial choices helped keep him alive. Were some of his gear choices different than what some of us would have done (boots), YES but outside of discussions most, if not all of us have stayed civil. And we will just have to agree to disagree.

"The best learning experience is your own experiences." One does learn more from their own mistakes, than someone else's, as it is the experience itself that one benefits and learns from. It is the climber himself that will get more out of this experience than anyone else will. "What can you learn from this experience?" There honestly isn't much that can be learned, except as others claim where to carry their map and compass. That actually is not a whole lot, that the hiking community took away from this man's ordeal.

And here we agree and disagree . . . yes, you are correct, the best experience is our own . . . we agree . . . that there isn't much that can be learned . . . I STRONGLY disagree . . . maybe for some there was NOTHING to learn, but for others there was something to be learned (map and compass, type of boot, emergency gear (like a warm sleeping bag)) even if you or others deem those lessons unworthy of this incident.

A person can read all the Guidebooks and Stories they want about hiking, learn what they should or should not do. Bottom line, "Common Sense" is the key words above treeline in Winter and knowing when to turn back.

And here we absolutely agree . . . 100%

I usually don't get involved in these kinds of discussions, I rarely find the "battle" of it worth my time and effort . . . however, I finally couldn't help myself. I believe I have said all that I can here and will go back to lurk mode. I respect your opinion and esspecially your right to have it however, I disagree with you on much of it.

sli74