Lost Hiker on Mt Lafayette - FOUND!

[weatherman]

almost been there, almost done that

Hey all- just a conjecture, at the risk of seeming simplistic. To me, this is in the category of "dang, I could have done that!". Hence, no blame.
Hypothesis: They were all close enough to the top that they summited, as the easiest way down if they were close to the top would have been down to the hut via Greenleaf. Gagnon went ahead and summited first.
If this is true, it is really easy to guess what happened next. I've had something similar happen to me twice on other mountains (to a much smaller degree).
First, routefinding down off a summit above treeline in winter is way, way harder than up to a summit. It can be surprising if you are not used to it. Sure, you might use a compass, but in a pinch, it's a bit tough to tell 300 from 360 when the weather stinks.
Second, the trails S to N off the summit of Lafayette are not well distinguished from one another at all for the first few dozen yards till you get below the old corral. The left turn to the hut is very easy to miss in a whiteout.
Finally, and most importantly, using the principles that gravity will drag you downhill and the wind will push you downwind, someone in the process of getting lost above treeline is typically downhill and downwind (to the east, in this case) from where they should be.... and the more tentative they are, the more exposed to these forces they are. It is so hard to resist this! Happened to me twice: both times being called an idiot by climbing partners kept me out of trouble.
So, no blame. Just remember: gravity sucks, and wind blows.

Weatherman

 

[Mike P.]

I'm GUESSING that since they were going to head to Liberty Springs that they were somewhere between The summits on the Ridge & they decided to turn back. That would make more sense considering where he was found.

If he was hypothermic, lost & confused on Saturday & climbed up the mountain thinking that was the way down (if you assume they did not make it to the top, at most they were 7/10 of a mile from the trees - the huts only just over a mile & I doubt he would have gotten seperated in the trees & ventured out of them going uphill) & lived two days being that bad on Saturday his survival is even more of a miracle.

again GUESSING he lost the ridge knew he was lost & did a good job staying alive. As others mentioned in winter in bad weather, the margin of safety is razor thin. Once they got above treeline & he made a wrong turn he had to make a lot of good decisions to stay alive, the margin however had been crossed.

 

[Mattl]

Yeah strange..I guess he had to have made to the summit and gone down the other side. There are still a few fishy things. As I know, things aren't so clear cut in cold temps and whiteout conditions.-Mattl

 

[grouseking]

Just to clarify the term "blame"

From dictionary.com, to blame is to:
1. to hold responsible; find fault with; censure: I don't blame you for leaving him.
2. to place the responsibility for (a fault, error, etc.) (usually fol. by on): I blame the accident on her.
3. Informal. blast; damn (used as a mild curse): Blame the rotten luck.
–noun 4. an act of attributing fault; censure; reproof: The judge said he found nothing to justify blame in the accident.
5. responsibility for anything deserving of censure: We must all share the blame for this deplorable condition.
—Idiom6. to blame, at fault; censurable: I am to blame for his lateness.

Synonyms 1, 2. reproach, reprove, reprehend, criticize. Blame, censure, condemn imply finding fault with someone or something. To blame is to hold accountable for, and disapprove because of, some error, mistake, omission, neglect, or the like: Whom do you blame for the disaster?


But anyways I definitely see other viewpoints, even though I disagree. And I truly hope that we, as a mature board are openly discussing correct things to do. I still believe that pointing out what someone did wrong before we hear the whole story is premature. Even if he knew the weather forecast for above treeline....And I still stand by what I said earlier that he can only blame himself, it is not our job, at least at this juncture. When all of the details come out, then and only then can one make some suggestions of what to do different. Then we can learn from what happened. But right now, I still think it is way too early to say anything negative.

Maybe others aren't trying to be negative, but it doesn't take long for people to gang up on someone while he/she is down. I'm not sure why I'm so passionate about this......

grouseking

 

[forestgnome]

Maybe others aren't trying to be negative, but it doesn't take long for people to gang up on someone while he/she is down. I'm not sure why I'm so passionate about this......grouseking

...because you're sticking up for a fellow hiker who is in rough shape, who never meant any harm, etc, and because we're all passionate about hiking and specifically about the subject of fatal/near fatal mistakes that some hikers make.

Each time there is a rescue, there will be a discussion on this board. You'll notice that if a well-prepared hiker breaks a leg and doesn't commit any of the basic no-nos, the discussion will be short and consoling. But if there are a series of basic mistakes made there will be much more discussion. It's not possible to discuss the mistakes without mentioning the mistakes! So long as it's a civil discussion, it just may save a life in the future.

All of the fatality and rescue stories over the years have given me a distaste for whiteout conditions. When there is snow on the ground and high winds forcasted, I don't go above treeline if when I get near treeline the wind is indeed howling. On Sunday the weather was gorgeous in the vallies with blue skies and no wind at all. I planned a hike to Mt Chocorua summit, then a bushwack down the west side to track critters. As I ascended it became clear that the wind was still whipping, and descending hikers didn't look too happy, so I didn't go up above treeline. My decision was based on all the stories I've read about whiteout above treeline. No thanks! Still had a great day in the forest tracking moose and a bobcat.

As for the Gagnon party, yes, "on the way down" probably meant that they were sounthbound on the ridge and turned around. Gagnon was ahead of the others and went straight on the summit instead of turning left for the hut. That's easy to do.

To summerize what I think is important on this thread, don't hike above treeline when it's -20f and the winds are 100mph sustained and there is snow.

Wishing a speedy recovery for Gagnon

Happy Trails

 

[MadRiver]

A side question if I may; do you consider hiking in leather boots or non-plastic boots in the winter to be reckless? Now that I have relocated to NH, I have just increased my winter hiking from a few trips a season to every other weekend. I’m in the market for some winter boots but I get the distinct impression from reading this thread that my only option seems to be plastic, if I do not want to be considered reckless if I spend an unplanned night in the woods.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

A side question if I may; do you consider hiking in leather boots or non-plastic boots in the winter to be reckless? Now that I have relocated to NH, I have just increased my winter hiking from a few trips a season to every other weekend. I’m in the market for some winter boots but I get the distinct impression from reading this thread that my only option seems to be plastic, if I do not want to be considered reckless if I spend an unplanned night in the woods.

I consider hiking in single leather boots in New England/New York winter reckless. But plastics can be overkill for all hikes as well if used for all hikes. Personally, I use plastics when 1) I'm going to spend most of the day in crampons (plastics provide much better ankle support), or 2) when I'm going to above treeline and expect temps to be 20F or less, or 3) when I expect temps to be in the 5F or less range, whether I'm above treeline or not. I use insulated hiking boots (Salomon Snowbows) for all other winter hikes. There are several comparable boots on the market. The key is good insulation (400 grams of Thinsulate are better than 200), good lateral and torsional rigidity, and a firm box toe to stand up to snowshoe bindings.

I've read many posts over the years of people who claim to hike regularly in single leathers, and I have no doubt they do ... as far as I'm concerned, they're an 'accident waiting to happen', and if not reckless behavior, then it's certainly questionable behavior.

 

[una_dogger]

Just as an aside, I hiked in leathers last weekend up to Mt Zealand and I have frostnip on my big toe.

 

[DougPaul]

A side question if I may; do you consider hiking in leather boots or non-plastic boots in the winter to be reckless? Now that I have relocated to NH, I have just increased my winter hiking from a few trips a season to every other weekend. I’m in the market for some winter boots but I get the distinct impression from reading this thread that my only option seems to be plastic, if I do not want to be considered reckless if I spend an unplanned night in the woods.

Perhaps an independent thread might be appropriate.

People falsely associate leather with 3-season boots and plastic with insulated winter boots. It is true that most current non-plastic boots are 3-season (or summer) and it is true that many or most plastic boots are insulated winter, but in neither case all.

There are good leather insulated winter boots. (I own a pair--Galiblier Makalus, no longer available. They are very warm and very comfortable.)

For serious cold weather, you probably want a double boot. The removable inuslating liner can be taken into one's sleeping bag to dry it overnight.

http://world.std.com/~bostonhb/docs/winterclothes.html has a good section on winter boots, including leather, shoepacs, mouseboots, and plastic.

http://www.climbing.com/equipment/boots218/ , a 2003 review of plastic and leather double boots.

REI doesn't seem to list any winter leather double boots... (They list plastic. Look in mountaineering boots.) IME might have some, or might have some in their consignment room.

Searches such as http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="leather+double+boot"+winter&btnG=Google+Search can bring up useful info.

Also there are many other threads on the topic--search and ye shall find.

If your boots are at all marginal, consider carrying booties as backup. You may not be able to do much hiking in them, but you can keep your feet warmer if you have to bivy.

And yes, good winter boots are expensive. But still cheaper than new feet.

Doug

 

[RoySwkr]

Frostbitten feet. Lost. Don't they teach you just to wait it out instead of wandering around endlessly?

Sometimes you are better off waiting for rescue and sometimes you are better off walking out. You may not know at the time which is best. James Kim would probably be alive today if he had waited at the car. The guy who was trapped by a rock and had to saw his limb off is lucky is he didn't wait.

I heard somewhere that he couldn't get his frozen boots back on his feet. It is actually considered OK to walk on frostbitten feet as long as they haven't been thawed.

Map and compass??? Or are they not carried anymore?

Earlier this month I hiked an extra couple miles when I took the wrong turn at a logging road junction because I was too lazy to get my compass out of my pack. There was no need to get S&R involved and the extra walk was probably good for my general health. I find that I often don't bother to look at a compass when it's rainy, windy, or buggy - yes, exactly those times in which not getting lost should be most useful.

But consider the process of looking at the compass in strong winds: if it is not in an outside pocket, where do you get it from and how do you do this without getting dangerously cold? How long does it take the needle to settle and can you stand still that long in gusty winds? How easy is it to read the needle if your goggles are frozen over? Maybe after trying this exercise you will decide to buy a new compass and carry it differently.

Speaking of winds, old woodcraft books often advised that noting the wind direction was a good way to avoid getting lost. Yes, winds can shift particularly if you cross a ridge but if it goes from being in front of you to behind you, it's wise to consider that somehow you might have gotten turned around. Suppose you climb a peak with the wind behind you, and at the summit you turn R and walk sideways to the wind. You decide this is too hazardous and decide to turn back, and when you lose the trail you drop off to the lee side of the mountain. Perhaps the wind is so strong that this is necessary, but you should realize that by keeping your back to the wind you are going down the opposite side from the way you came up. And you should tell your rescuers you went down the lee side so they can concentrate their search.

 

[grouseking]

Personally, I can't afford plastic boots. And I dont take overnights, because I work at night. But if you go out at night, its probably best to have them. While I move, my feet are never cold, in fact they sweat. But if I were to stop and temps were cold, chances are the toes would get cold fast. Saying that, I think its up to the person and the conditions.

grouseking

 

[kmac]

FYI ---EMS rents out plastic boots out of the North Conway store and I'm pretty sure IME does too. Before investing in plastics you might want to rent them and test them out. I too have a problem with cold toes, and I've tried toe warmers,liners and nothing seems to really keep them totally toasty. I own a pair of La Sportiva moutaineering boots and hiked with them last winter, but noticed the last few times I've been out this winter, my toes are just plain cold. I have wonder if changing the insoles of my boots to thicker ones, would help? Has anyone tried this?
kmac

 

[gaiagirl]

I hiked with inadequate winter boots for a while until I found double plastics at an incredible price last year. I am thrilled with them and, while at times even in winter they can be overkill, I generally wouldn't think of wearing anything else in the Whites in wintertime. And, if any of the guys out there are looking for a pair and need a LARGE size (their 14s!), I recently saw a couple pairs on sale in North Conway for a really reasonable price. I don't want to do any advertising for any particular store here, but if this interests you, send me a PM and I'll give you the details.

 

[nartreb]

There is nothing magic about plastic boots. They're stiffer, they don't breathe at all, they're heavier. None of these is an advantage for a hiker.

 

[DougPaul]

Sometimes you are better off waiting for rescue and sometimes you are better off walking out. You may not know at the time which is best. James Kim would probably be alive today if he had waited at the car.

Could have gone either way for Kim. The rescuers spotted his tracks and followed them back to the car, resulting in his family being rescued. If he had waited at the car, there is a chance that none of them would have been found and rescued.

Doug

 

[likeitsteep]

sorel caribous

so snowshoeing in sorel caribous, which are leather and rubber (and waterproof) and rated to -40 degrees, are not worthy of a winter outing? i think i'd rather be stranded in these than plastics.

 

[DougPaul]

FYI ---EMS rents out plastic boots out of the North Conway store and I'm pretty sure IME does too.

REI in Reading, MA also rents insulated plastics and matching crampons.

Doug

 

[giggy]

Personally, I can't afford plastic boots. And I dont take overnights, because I work at night. But if you go out at night, its probably best to have them. While I move, my feet are never cold, in fact they sweat. But if I were to stop and temps were cold, chances are the toes would get cold fast. Saying that, I think its up to the person and the conditions.

grouseking

I am sure you could hike in sneakers all day and be fine if you don't stop.

you just made the point yourself - if you stop. if you get hurt - your stopping. that being said, I do think you can safely hike in some leathers. la sportiva makes a great leather boot(s) that i know many use on overnights. I use a scarpa cumbre - which for example, kept me warm all day on sat and sunday ice climbing - (ie - standing around belaying alot). temps were at least near zero were I was.

My cumbres are actually warmer than my the degres I used to have and perform much better. The also stayed bone dry on 2 summer glaicier climbs this past summer - (read - lots of slush) not sure how they would be in minus 30 - but these days, I am not heading out in that.

 

[likeitsteep]

outdoor research low overboots

anybody ever carry these in their pack for emergencies:

http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/p...&Nty=1&Ntt=low+ranger&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=submit

they're relatively light and compact. they cover a leather boot well. I got them cheap a while ago and now i carry them in my pack for just that emergency purpose. or if my feet get too cold snowshoeing, hiking, standing around, etc.

 

[RoySwkr]

There is nothing magic about plastic boots. They're stiffer, they don't breathe at all, they're heavier. None of these is an advantage for a hiker.

They have stiffer soles and may hold crampons better, and they may be warmer, which may be advantages. Probably the best winter boots are triple leather which you don't find in EMS stores in malls.

I bought a pair of used plastic boots for cramponing but have never worn them on a 4k peak, the first round in winter I climbed most of them in insulated rubber boots. I know people who have climbed the winter 4k in galoshes over leather work shoes, obviously these people did not go winter camping in 100 mph winds but picked easier hikes or stayed home on bad days. You can buy insulated leather boots or pac boots which are perfectly adequate for most winter hikes.