Mask mandate on Federal property, including WMNF

[Salty]

While the New England data doesn't show that mask mandates are working, it has been lacking a control group since the New Hampshire mask mandate.

On the other hand, we do have an active experiment in the United States with the Dakotas.

Both saw huge spikes, and both saw huge drops, regardless of mask mandate:

The obvious answer is probably the correct one. Because people who are conscientious about not spreading the disease and believe the science do wear masks regardless of a mandate. And those who refuse to wear masks for whatever reason, continue to do so regardless of a mandate. I've certainly seen plenty of that around here.

The problem of effectiveness isn't mask mandates per se. The problem is mask mandates without teeth. AFAIK, there are no fines specified in the Governor's executive order. I have yet to see a single worker challenge a maskless person, even when there's signs on the door "do NOT come in without a mask." The Governor has said before he doesn't want to hear from the public "ratting" out businesses who don't comply, and I'm now hearing the Sunapee Ski Area is a joke of compliance, with crowds doing no social distancing and people not wearing masks. It's like saying we're putting in drunk driving laws to protect the public, but there will be no enforcement or fines. Or repeal them altogether because I have a constitutional right to freedom, and that means I shouldn't have to be sober to drive. Yeah. Let's see how that works out.

The fact we even have to mandate common sense is ridiculous, but necessary given the sad behavior of too many.

 

[Salty]

To be accurate, this thread is about the recent presidential executive order about a federal mask mandate, not about mask mandates and whether they are effective or not.

Tim

Nahhhh. We were done with that days ago.

(but I do thank you for the reminder - I plead guilty of drift)

 

[Salty]

We have been told that mask mandates are "following the science" and that they will stop the spread. Any pirate not living under a rock can see that the spread was not stopped.

They do follow the science. People don't follow the mandates. To be clear, are you saying the science is wrong?

 

[Mike P.]

People not following mandates? If Lion's could pull a time heist, they would have eaten Noah's family once they hit land, thanks for the ride, Lions have to be Lions!

 

[Remix]

We have been told that mask mandates are "following the science" and that they will stop the spread. Any pirate not living under a rock can see that the spread was not stopped. If a pirate were assessing the results, they would make the mask mandates walk the plank. Yarrr!

Nobody said masks would stop the spread completely. The problem is that there are enough people with a political agenda or lack of education or a lack of concern for others to not follow the mandates, and then attempt to justify their beliefs based on the consequences.

 

[rocket21]

They do follow the science. People don't follow the mandates. To be clear, are you saying the science is wrong?

1. I have seen near universal compliance since the NH state mandate. I can count the number of unmasked customers I've seen in stores/post office/etc. since November on one hand, as compared to the many hundreds "complying."

2. Anecdotally I know people who have been "following the rules," always wearing masks, etc. yet have still contracted COVID-19.

3. A study released a few months ago showed a few months ago that the vast majority of cases were of people who reported almost always or always wearing a mask.

4. Decades of science suggest cloth masks do not prevent such viruses from transmitting. See CDC study published in May, or Dr. Fauci's comments in March.

5. The actual case load does not support mask usage or mandates stopping the spread, particularly as cases are off the charts in the fall/winter as compared to the non-masked spring. As noted in the Dakota charts, the numbers can be skewed by a variety of factors.

6. In government-regulated institutions such as nursing homes and prisons, COVID-19 continues to rip through, despite strict masking and other requirements.

I believe many people *want* masks to stop the spread and *want* to feel like they can control the spread of the virus.

I do not think mask mandates have stopped the spread. I think mask mandates may be detrimental by providing a false sense of security, leading the most vulnerable to believe they are safe in environments in which they are actually at risk.

I think we need to focus on figuring out how to protect the vulnerable. As demonstrated by the continued deaths in those demographics that are being attributed to COVID-19, we clearly have not figured this out. I pray that this ends soon; it's devastating.

 

[Mike P.]

Masks are not nearly important as social distancing, real social distancing, formerly known as being anti-social. I'll have to agree to disagree with mask wearing as even in CT where we suffered early due to not knowing as it spread from NY through Europe initially, our prison population has not been too bad recently. Every week we get a phone call on how the nursing home my M-I-L is residing in and the staff is tested every week. They are aggressively managing it and I have to think the employees know to behave outside of work. They've had less than ten cases once from April until now. (it's a nice place & I'm sure less affluent homes have not been as fortunate)

Define mask wearing? If it's only covering your chin, not covering your nose if you spend two hours in a restaurant or bar and eat a full course meal or have three beers and an appetizer and don't guzzle the beers and wolf down the app in under a minute, but casually enjoy friends and good food, (as you should) you're not wearing a mask. (30 minutes unmasked to eat and drink isn't wearing a mask, even if you wore it the other hour you were there.)

This part of CT is pretty compliant and we certainly aren't a "Live Free or Die" group and if I'm in the grocery store, I see a handful of only mouth covered every time and on at least once a week a chin strap only. We can't even get people to follow directions and walk one way in the aisles. I think depends on your group though, I see 15-21 year old kids not wearing them and while outside are close enough so it doesn't matter.

Wearing a mask is important, but social distancing and constant handwashing are part of the plan, distancing most important, IMO. (What percent of the population can be bad without any ramifications? We haven't found that percentage & it's much lower than the number of college kids who are still out socializing and "enjoying" the college experience. )

Until my wife and I are vaccinated, our parents are vaccinated and others in our group are vaccinated, (many over 50, some like myself with other health issues, teachers and nurses so we should be done by May), I'm in no hurry to see a movie, sit in a bar, go to a show, visit nearby casinos, dine in a restaurant or stay in a motel/hotel. I'll stay most of the week in our time share in March if possible but I'll wait two days after they clean it, won't sit at the table, bring my own food, (won't have to hunt for TP at Walmart in NC this time). All I need is a gallon of milk and a 12 pack of Tuckerman's! that I can get in the local store I can walk to.

 

[JoshandBaron]

I've been section hiking the MA AT this winter and this past weekend I was the only person of the 20 or so I saw that had a mask. I've also been the only one with MA plates at the trailheads, speaking of toothless mandates. Go figure.

 

[DayTrip]

I've been section hiking the MA AT this winter and this past weekend I was the only person of the 20 or so I saw that had a mask. I've also been the only one with MA plates at the trailheads, speaking of toothless mandates. Go figure.

There has been a section of the AT South of Greylock I've been wanting to hit for a few weeks now but I haven't gone because I'm a CT resident and my CT plate at the trailhead would invite problems. Guess that fear is unfounded.

 

[Mike P.]

I know we are on a hiking board and hiking is what we do, if you only see 20 people all day hiking, your doing a pretty good job at social distancing. They certainly aren't going to have anyone checking except perhaps on Greylock which is actually a State Reservation. (I know it's the spirit of the mandate)

Until they start having law enforcement in all states enforcing it and writing fines that are held up in court, it remains a good faith gesture in being considerate of others you come into near contact with. Add to my list of places I'm not going to include a Saturday or Sunday trip to Monadnock, Greylock F-Ridge, Bear (CT or NY). If I opt for a Kearsarge North trip it will start very early.

 

[jfb]

I've been section hiking the MA AT this winter and this past weekend I was the only person of the 20 or so I saw that had a mask. I've also been the only one with MA plates at the trailheads, speaking of toothless mandates. Go figure.

My experience in the Berkshires has been that it's pretty easy to keep 6 feet away from other hikers.

 

[Mike P.]

Proper mask wearing in the Whites,

https://i.redd.it/h7ma10ne4pc61.jpg

 

[JoshandBaron]

My experience in the Berkshires has been that it's pretty easy to keep 6 feet away from other hikers.

I would agree. Having a mask at the ready is also easy. Nobody was making an effort on either front, though. Thankfully people only seem to hike on Sunday in MA.

 

[JoshandBaron]

There has been a section of the AT South of Greylock I've been wanting to hit for a few weeks now but I haven't gone because I'm a CT resident and my CT plate at the trailhead would invite problems. Guess that fear is unfounded.

There is no enforcement of any of these mandates at any level. If the past couple of months are any indication your plate will fit right in. Every New England state, NJ, and NY was represented at the Race Brook Falls trailhead yesterday afternoon. It's mostly been NY and CT on every section I've done this winter. To be fair, they're probably all driving shorter distances than I am to get to these hikes.

 

[Salty]

Thank you for clarifying what you're getting at. I won't belabor this discussion, just have some comments.

1. I have seen near universal compliance since the NH state mandate. I can count the number of unmasked customers I've seen in stores/post office/etc. since November on one hand, as compared to the many hundreds "complying."

All I can say is mine and other people I've talked to have experienced differently. I'd need two hands just to count the number of people I see within a week, and I don't go out much of anywhere anymore. Possibly a geographic thing, but reading a recent article of a road trip from DC to Colorado, a reporter took to get his mother a vaccine shot (all of this anecdotal, of course) showed not a lot of people wearing masks.

2. Anecdotally I know people who have been "following the rules," always wearing masks, etc. yet have still contracted COVID-19.

Sorry to hear. I have a good friend who just tested positive yesterday, same deal. Unfortunately, masks are more effective at outgoing than incoming (see below). She got it from someone who didn't believe in masks.

3. A study released a few months ago showed a few months ago that the vast majority of cases were of people who reported almost always or always wearing a mask.

4. Decades of science suggest cloth masks do not prevent such viruses from transmitting. See CDC study published in May, or Dr. Fauci's comments in March.

I tried finding the CDC study. Closest I could get was this: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html, which says they are effective, multiple layer far more so than single layer. Masks were never claimed to be end-all for transmission, they are effective, not 100% so, but certainly far more than 0% effective. Again, I point out there's a reason people cover their mouths when they sneeze or cough. I'm not sure what decades of research you are referring to, I will refer you back to TEO's links which reviews well over 100 studies saying otherwise.

5. The actual case load does not support mask usage or mandates stopping the spread, particularly as cases are off the charts in the fall/winter as compared to the non-masked spring. As noted in the Dakota charts, the numbers can be skewed by a variety of factors.

I disagree with the first assertion vehemently. The toll from this catastrophe would be far higher without masking, and I fail to see how any reasonable person could argue the inherent value of reducing infected water droplets in the air. Yes, clearly there are other factors affecting the mandate, and the rise of the virus.

6. In government-regulated institutions such as nursing homes and prisons, COVID-19 continues to rip through, despite strict masking and other requirements.

That is a perplexing one, and you've definitely got me at a loss there, presuming said strict masking requirements have been actually followed.

I believe many people *want* masks to stop the spread and *want* to feel like they can control the spread of the virus.

I do not think mask mandates have stopped the spread.

100% agree, we just have different opinions on why they are ineffective.

I think mask mandates may be detrimental by providing a false sense of security, leading the most vulnerable to believe they are safe in environments in which they are actually at risk.

I think we need to focus on figuring out how to protect the vulnerable. As demonstrated by the continued deaths in those demographics that are being attributed to COVID-19, we clearly have not figured this out. I pray that this ends soon; it's devastating.

Ditto on your last sentence.

 

[Barkingcat]

Regarding: 6. In government-regulated institutions such as nursing homes and prisons, COVID-19 continues to rip through, despite strict masking and other requirements.

In many of these cases, it's a compliance issue -- masking requirements are not being followed, or if they are, sporadically. That information has been reported over and over for the past several months.

 

[rocket21]

Regarding: 6. In government-regulated institutions such as nursing homes and prisons, COVID-19 continues to rip through, despite strict masking and other requirements.

In many of these cases, it's a compliance issue -- masking requirements are not being followed, or if they are, sporadically. That information has been reported over and over for the past several months.

Some of the deadliest outbreaks of COVID-19 in the region have been at government-run nursing homes. We're nearly a year into this pandemic, yet mask mandates and other measures are clearly not preventing the tragic deaths at nursing homes. There will never be perfect "compliance" unless we glue masks to every face and mandate Elizabethan collars to prevent folks from touching them.

It's not working.

 

[DayTrip]

Some of the deadliest outbreaks of COVID-19 in the region have been at government-run nursing homes. We're nearly a year into this pandemic, yet mask mandates and other measures are clearly not preventing the tragic deaths at nursing homes. There will never be perfect "compliance" unless we glue masks to every face and mandate Elizabethan collars to prevent folks from touching them.

It's not working.

So what is your point then? You've made it abundantly clear that you don't think the mask mandates are working. So what do you suggest we do? Just go back to business as usual, let the thing run its course, kill a few million people and call it a day? Is that the message you want to be hearing from State and national leadership? This tired notion that a mask mandate can either be 100% effective or 0% effective is really getting stale. You've made your viewpoint clear.

 

[JoshandBaron]

This is what compliance by those tasked with enforcing mask mandates on public transportation looks like. Care to guess which way **** rolls?

 

[rocket21]

So what is your point then? You've made it abundantly clear that you don't think the mask mandates are working. So what do you suggest we do? Just go back to business as usual, let the thing run its course, kill a few million people and call it a day? Is that the message you want to be hearing from State and national leadership? This tired notion that a mask mandate can either be 100% effective or 0% effective is really getting stale. You've made your viewpoint clear.

False premise. As the data clearly show, mask mandates are not preventing the killing "a few million people."

1. Protect the vulnerable. The most vulnerable, particularly those in nursing homes, continue to die in the largest numbers. Obviously we can't just keep repeating the same actions and hoping for a different result.
2. Encourage distance and being outdoors. We learned this with the Spanish Flu.
3. If you feel sick, stay at home, but not with a ridiculous quarantine period. There are many out there who don't want to be shut-ins for 10-14 days every time they get a sniffle.
4. Stop the shut downs, interstate travel bans, and stay-at-home orders. The orders have not been obeyed, nor have they been effective. The suicides, drug abuse, physical abuse, and destruction of businesses are devastating.
5. Dump the mask mandates. They're clearly not the silver bullet to stopping the spread of the virus, but they spreading division (whether directly through my-body-my-choice, or less directly by hiding something called a smile, which goes a long way in civil communication). Perhaps more crucially, they provide a false sense of security, leading people to go out in public who are sick because 'it's okay, we're all wearing masks.'
6. Study HVAC. There seems to be a correlation with heating (northeast spread last winter/this winter) and cooling (southern spread last summer).
7. Reduce testing and testing thresholds. Focus on those needing medical attention and those who are in contact with the vulnerable. Otherwise, stop testing the healthy and stop using such a high cycle threshold. Government appears to be looking into this now.
8. Change the metrics. Stop automatically counting deaths as COVID just because the victim was COVID positive. In addition, stop reporting cases and deaths on an ever-growing basis and start using years/seasons (such as with the flu). Government appears to be looking into this now.

In any event, history suggests the case load will decrease significantly in the northeast in a few months when warmer weather returns. I hope this is the last wave and that the death and destruction comes to an end.