moose antler; leave it or keep it?

[VFTTop'r]

Lnt

So if we are to LNT and with spring here we probably should not swat the black flies and dear flies. Oh ya, don't step on any bugs either it will hurt the fragile environment.

What do you think Sid?

 

[JohnL]

I'm confused.
Does this mean that LNT guidelines can be shunned if it is inconvenient or if your purpose is "appropriate"? If yes, then what is the point of LNT guidelines?

JohnL

 

[Snowflea]

I'm just happy that Sid Yamel is back!!
But what happened to the avatar??

 

[Jasonst]

Um, well, I guess everything discarded belongs to , umm, Jason!

I lay no claim to the moose dung! But, since she has graced us with her presence, what would the almighty Stinkyfeet do in this instance? Keep the antler or let it be?

 

[MattC]

LNT principles are just that, principles. They are not dogma. There is however a reason they exist, and it's not so people who adhere to them can be pretentious and preachy, or so that others can make sarcastic wisecracks.
Before I go further, I'd like to acknowledge the excellent point some have made about the paradox with hunting and taking stuff like antlers. I don't know the answer to this.

As for LNT, however, the questions one needs to ask before taking an action are:
Will this have an adverse effect on the plant or animal life, soil, water, geology, trail/campsite conditions, etc?
Will this affect the safety, health or enjoyment of future hikers?

I personally wouldn't take an antler, because if in fact they supply food for rodents, then that adversely affects rodents and their predators. If there's a chance someone (even one) other person might get to see the thing where it is, taking it will unquestionably make that person's experience less than it might have been. I also wouldn't be any happier with the thing than without it. If you think it's okay to take the thing, fine, take it. It doesn't make you evil. If you think I'm an uptight snob, fine, think away. This isn't about me.

It goes without saying that LNT is an imperfect practice. Life is an imperfect practice. Obviously, taking an antler or feather doesn't compare to littering, scratching your name on a summit rock or befouling a stream. But, if you're trying to rationalize something by saying "somebody else will do this anyway", "there's enough of this thing that I'm taking to go around", "so-and-so who I respect said it's okay" then maybe you should think twice.

What you really feel is important, and if you're rationalizing, maybe you don't really feel that good about it. Likewise if you become angry defending your actions. Conversely, if you really feel something's okay, then all the people in the world scolding you shouldn't make you feel bad about it. Principles (and happiness for that matter) must ultimately come from within, not from without. I'm not telling anyone to do something just because it says so in a book, just encouraging folks to think and feel.

Matt

 

[Skyclimber]

Um, well, I thought this was obvious but the antler belonged to the moose, and the moose discarded it, so, umm, I guess it's mine. Trail signs and markers do not belong to me so I leave them alone.

So if you happened to drop your wallet and I find it, is it umm Mine? I guess so. The wallet belonged to you but you discarded it, so, umm, I guess it's mine!

 

[Neil]

Leaving antlers or whatever else so that other humans may enjoy them is simply a considerate act. I'm too inconsiderate to leave gold nuggets behind. If you happen to be in an area where you know the odds that another human may tread there are aproximately zero than that reason dosn't stand. As for the rest, who cares?

While climbing the Wright Slide I found a chunk of airplane that I brought out with me. The odds of finding it were about a million to one. Anyway, I photographed it and posted a link to the pics here on VFTT. Much to my surprise no one criticized me. I found the ensuing posts and discussion quite fascinating.

 

[Jasonst]

If you all found a "naturally occurring" gold nugget in a stream, would you abide by LNT or would you stick it in your pocket, scrap the hike, and start wading?

I am still wondering what you all would do in this instance... (thanks Neil)

 

[Neil]

Jason,
I would pocket the nugget and immediately start looking for more.

 

[Jasonst]

So if you happened to drop your wallet and I find it, is it umm Mine? I guess so. The wallet belonged to you but you discarded it, so, umm, I guess it's mine!

To complete the analogy, I guess that wallet would need to be bothersome to me, in which case if I willingly discarded it, it would be yours. Now, how about a bothersome pair of underwear that I willingly discarded (perhaps in a garbage can at Lincoln woods)? You could keep those too...

 

[spider solo]

Yes ..it is called litter..and sure enough my wife and I have carried even those out of the woods...and of course we hope they weren't yours.

 

[Jaytrek57]

I am still wondering what you all would do in this instance...

I would take it, cash it in, buy your barn, then put those antlers back.

or buy a pizza...I'm hungry. Sorry...continue.

 

[mommabear]

OK. Aren't we getting to the point that we're beating a dead horse? . . . or maybe in this case, it would be more appropriate to say a 'dead' moose?

I think it's interesting to see the various viewpoints on a topic like this, but either way, maybe somebody should set up a poll to see what most people would do if they found a set of moose antlers on the trail.

Since there were so many references to my turkey feather, I want to say that years later, I still have that feather and every time I look at it, I'm reminded of where I was in my life and for some reason, it helps to give me perspective of where I am now. Just as an example, at the time, I would never have anticipated that I would hike solo in the Adirondacks, complete the 46, or feel comfortable hiking on trailless peaks or in the dark. So, maybe there are some who would judge me for a turkey feather, but what bothers me more is when I'm hiking along a trail and I have to avoid stepping on human feces and toilet paper strewn across the trail - or somebody's garbage. It's all important, but that kind of stuff is what I'm more concerned about when I think of LNT.

 

[afka_bob]

If you happen to be in an area where you know the odds that another human may tread there are aproximately zero than that reason dosn't stand.

Approximating zero leaves a large range. That you are there increases the odds that humans may tread there by a factor >infinity (if 0 X infinity = 0 and you being there = 1). After that, you are right, it is simply a matter of consideration (in some places) and a matter of regulations or even law (in others).

If I understand Jasonst correctly, than there is a greater incentive to be inconsiderate with the escalation of value of the objerct to be carried away. Wow -- I think J. has single-handedly defined the motive behind most human endeavor!

And to think, I was there to see it (the distillation of the definition of the meaning of life, not the antler pick-up)!

Earlier, J. asked if the lack of an antler diminishes a hike for later hikers. I assume he asked this with the implied response of "no" in mind. Since the answer is actually "yes," that part of J.'s argument that was supported by the "no" answer falls flat. Even with that failure, I think it was a stronger ethical argument than "it's worth enough to be inconsiderate."

PS:
Is Tom Brady's surgery to look more like a young Michael Jackson complete?

 

[Neil]

OK. Aren't we getting to the point that we're beating a dead horse? . . . or maybe in this case, it would be more appropriate to say a 'dead' moose?

Reminds me of a bunch of bearded scholars spending a week debating one line of the Talmud!

Afka_bob,
You get off a train in the Canadian wilderness and bushwhack for a day seeing not a single indication of human passage when you spy the mythical VFTT moose antler. I promise that if you take it with you the chance is precisely zero that you would be depriving a fellow human of seeing that antler.

 

[Jasonst]

I guess since I am willing to haul out a discarded moose antler, I rank lower on the scale of moral superiority than many others. Have a great day all.

 

[afka_bob]

... I promise that if you take it with you the chance is that you would be depriving a fellow human of seeing that antler....

Well, I must humbly beg your very great indulgence for using your original estimation of "approximately." [Looking up "precisely" in the dictionary] Could we compromise and call it "precisely + 1"?

To be a bit more serious for a moment, the chance that most of the people on this forum will find themselves in the day’s bushwack from the train through the middle of the (except for the train’s track) trackless wilderness approaches the precision of your “zero.” I think the original question about antlers was probably talking about a slightly higher (foot, if not train) -traffic area.

And the bearded scholar in me wants to know if it is only really there if a human being is there to take it?

I guess since I am willing to haul out a discarded moose antler, I rank lower on the scale of moral superiority than many others. Have a great day all.

Gee, Jasonst, you're the one who came up with the "diminishment" standard.

This is a really silly discussion... I think LNT sometimes is over the top and lacking in reasonableness.

while you struggle with any perceived moral deficit, some of the rest of us will have to simply deal with being silly.

 

[VFTTop'r]

situational ethics

Sounds like situational ethics to me. Everyone just do what is right in your own eyes....ya right!

 

[Sid Yamel]

I'm just happy that Sid Yamel is back!!
But what happened to the avatar??

Hey it's good to be back! Hey stinkyfeet what exactly make the LNT faith right?

 

[jjmcgo]

Good point

I like what mcorsar wrote:
"I also wouldn't be any happier with the thing than without it."
I realize that isn't an ethical basis (would I take it if I was happier with it?) but it's a good standard to consider before any acquisition. By that standard, I'd never buy a razor.
Does LNT apply to non-natural things like railroad parts, building materials and other remnants of industry in the woods?