Mount Madison Rescue

[Bob Kittredge]

Closed huts

Is there actually a good reason why these huts are closed?

I would guess that it's simply not economically feasible to keep all the huts open year round, and heated even minimally.

I don't know how much you know about the "huts". This link, http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/huts/index.cfm , might shed some light. Notice that there is an Availability link that makes it clear what huts are open when and whether they're all booked up yet or not. Madison Springs hut doesn't open until June 1.

A few of the huts at lower elevations are kept open during the off-season with caretakers resident to look after them.

There are also some more primitive shelters run by the Randolph Mountain Club on the north slope of Mount Adams ( http://www.randolphmountainclub.org/ ) that are open year round, I think.

 

[Mike P.]

I have a question that I sort of asked Dave M. on another website.

If I was a relatively new hiker & I was to walk into a hut other than Carter Notch or the road side venues, in the summer, (because only hardcore idiots who did not listen to their mommies would go out in bad weather), is there any signage at a hut that is plainly visible (not the brouchures or online) that would lead me to think the hut is not always open?

Is there any signage at the USFS information centers or Lincoln Woods that might lead me to believe the huts are not open all year?

While many people use this bbs & others for information, I have to believe that number is only a small fraction of people who hike, especially from May 1st through October 31st. More people, especially newer hikers likely get there info (if they get any at all) from a map & from USFS road side centers & maybe at HC & PNVC.

 

[David Metsky]

i think a series bad descions were made and they flat out - screwed up. It seems some here are looking for excuses for them - well we don't know the whole story, - come on - lets get real dudes!

What are you talking about? No one has argued that they didn't make mistakes, some serious and blatant. No one is making excuses for them; we're just trying to understand and perhaps educate others so it doesn't happen again.

It feels like you want them pilloried on the town green where passerbys can throw rotten fruit at them. I can't see what that would accomplish.

-dave-

 

[David Metsky]

Is there actually a good reason why these huts are closed?

Also, the hut septic systems rely on running water. If people were using the highest huts in winter, the area would quickly become a disaster. People camping around the huts now are already causing problems.

Also, the huts would draw even more unprepared people into a harsh environment. That's why the Edmands Col and Moosilauke summit shelters were removed, too many people were using them as planned destinations rather than emergency shelters and getting into trouble up there.

-dave-

 

[dms]

i think a series bad descions were made and they flat out - screwed up. It seems some here are looking for excuses for them - well we don't know the whole story, - come on - lets get real dudes!

I agree with you giggy, the mistakes they made were all avoidable. There is nothing wrong with a disussion of such things on a site like this.

 

[Flounder]

Whether or not these youths made poor judgments, they probably should be charged for the rescue.

For example;
US Coast Guard charges for many rescues for boaters, windsurfers, kayakers, ect.
These are PUBLIC SERVICES which are supported by TAX dollars directly.

Why then, should a mountain rescue not be considered the same?

Jeff

Jeff as a licensed USCG Certified Master Captain with years of experience sailing, racing and fishing on the open ocean. I can safely say that the USCG helps lots of idiots (lots and lots) and will never “charge them” for the rescue. There is no law on the books that requires a charge for saving lives although… they will write you up for as many infractions as they can find including but not limited to DUI, lack of proper safety gear, registration, passenger limits and so on especially if they think you were negligent. They also save many professionals that make their living on the ocean each year that find them self in a bad situation.

 

[giggy]

It feels like you want them pilloried on the town green where passerbys can throw rotten fruit at them. I can't see what that would accomplish.

-dave-

Dave - not really - a simple - "they screwed up" will do. I would bet if they were here, they would say - ya know what - we screwed up and we acted stupid.

More perplexed by others comments that the actual issue at hand.

I said my thoughts on the issue and I have done more than my share to beat this to death - so no more comments from me

have a great weekend all - looks to be nice and warm.

 

[pilgrim]

There are plenty of stupid people in the world.

Some days it's my turn to be stupid, so I'll just be happy they're OK and not pass judgment.

An odd (and possibly off-topic) thought occurred to me while reading this interesting thread. Earlier this week, an unfortunate young man committed suicide by jumping off Cathedral Ledge. F&G had to retrieve the remains, doing the same kind of stuff, with the same kind of risks (and costs) associated with rescuing living (but stupid) people. Local cops and fire were involved, also. Should somebody pay? Who?

 

[jade]

Police, firefighters, EMT's, paramedics, etc. are already paid by tax payers dollars, why charge someone twice? As a volunteer fire fighter and first responder, I go on a call knowing that I am not going to be paid and that there are some inherent dangers. Appreciation for my efforts is my reward.

....Jade

 

[Mike P.]

If we pelted them with rotten fruit, maybe we could remake The Holy Grail, after all they are remaking every other movie (Omen, Posiden)

Let me rephrase my question:

If I was a new hiker & this July while day hiking Mt. Madison (why I don't know, my girlfriend's name is Madison or I want a job on Madison Ave.) I came across the hut. I never knew they existed. I wnt in used the bathroom where I saw they had bunks, holy mad cow, you mean I could sleep here, great. I'm so exicted I run up & down Madison & head on home. Come Spring next year I start thinking about hiking, I'm going to start my hiking season earlier, say Mother's Day or May 22nd, I'll go & hike Madison again & stay the night this time. I'll bring my friend Jack, he'd love it too.

Is there a sign in the hut that everyone who ventures inside to use the bathroom or check the place out will see that tells everyone...

"This hut is closed from Sept. 14th to June 4th?

(Days could be changeable since it changes each year. Months are examples that are close to Mad & LOC dates)

If I see a hut in July, why would I think they are closed or that I need to call someone for a reservation? No phones at the hut, who would I call.

Now I know this seems real dumb, however, if we have to put a warning on a coffee lid that the hot coffee I just bought has hot coffee under the lid or that the Buzz Lightyear toy can't really fly or the Barbie plane, does not really fly, you probably should tell them you are not open 24/7

 

[timmus]

Now I know this seems real dumb, however, if we have to put a warning on a coffee lid that the hot coffee I just bought has hot coffee under the lid or that the Buzz Lightyear toy can't really fly or the Barbie plane, does not really fly, you probably should tell them you are not open 24/7

Especially if you don't want to get sued...

 

[Clown]

Tax dollars does not always pay for everything. If you call 911 and get a ride in an ambulance they are going to charge you. If you have insurance then your ins. might pay for it , but if you don't you are going to have to pay for it yourself . An ambulance ride can cost anywhere from $300 to more than $1000 depending on what ambulance service and what was done for you. Also, unlike hospitals an ambulance company should do whatever they need regardless of insurance and I'm not sure about all of them but I know that the one I work for only gets about 60% of the money it bills and most of the money we lose is to insurance companies, not people. Most people don't usually think about the money it will cost them when they dial 911. Police and Fire are paid by tax dollars, but Fire Fighters will still charge for an ambulance ride if they give one. Police get alot of their money by writing tickets ect.....

 

[sierra]

Ok I read the first 4 pages of this thread then skipped ahead. My 2 cents, giggy is right on, sugar coat this all you want, they screwed up plain and simple. My last point, IM STILL against cell phone use in the backcountry and this rescue is a perfect example why. All humans (even greenhorns) have an instinct for survival, without the cell, I believe they would have realized they where screwed and walked out themselves.
Look, IM glad their safe and yes we all make mistakes. I wouldnt suggest they desearved to die, heck no, last time I checked ignorance wasnt a crime. I would also say if I happened to be at Appalachia at the time I would have volanteered in a minute to go up and haul them down. It is imporntant to review these incidents and pick them apart, evaluate them and maybe someone on this board might learn something, but I agree I have no ill feelings to any of the rescued, but its ok to spank them alittle before tucking them back into their warm bed.

 

[clg898]

I subscribe to the school of thought that says..

only put yourself into situations that you can get yourself out of on your own. If not, be ready to face the consequences.

So, if your not ready to potentially die, don't put yourself in that position. Don't jump into the deep end of the swimming pool if you can't swim. Too many people feel entitled. Someone will save them b/c it is their civic responsibility. I think that is complete BS. I have read many stories of people who skiied off the back side snowfields at Sugarloaf, and then called Rescue at 6 at night b/c they were cold, tired, and lost at .... upwards of a mile or 2 in the valley to safety. Maybe I just subscribe to Darwinism, but these people just should not reproduce. Maybe save them, but cut off their reproductive organs.

I'm sure you will think that until the day comes when you need the help of others. And, that day will come... it does for all of us.

 

[sierra]

I subscribe to the school of thought that says..

only put yourself into situations that you can get yourself out of on your own. If not, be ready to face the consequences.

So, if your not ready to potentially die, don't put yourself in that position. Don't jump into the deep end of the swimming pool if you can't swim. Too many people feel entitled. Someone will save them b/c it is their civic responsibility. I think that is complete BS. I have read many stories of people who skiied off the back side snowfields at Sugarloaf, and then called Rescue at 6 at night b/c they were cold, tired, and lost at .... upwards of a mile or 2 in the valley to safety. Maybe I just subscribe to Darwinism, but these people just should not reproduce. Maybe save them, but cut off their reproductive organs.

I think its healthy to analize situations but jeesh, lets not go overboard here. We are all human, is there not some time in your life where people could go on and on about how dumb you where?

 

[dug]

Personally, I just feel bad for this dead horse that we've beat.

Isn't there some dog story we can concentrate on?

 

[Waumbek]

Dog Rescues Girl, Amen

Isn't there some dog story we can concentrate on?

BOSTON -- We've heard about all the destruction caused by last week's flooding, but here's a story with a happy ending.

A 10-year-old dog is being credited with saving a young girl's life.

The Hines family, from Goffstown, N.H., said their dog Dallas pushed their 11-year-old daughter out of the way just before she was sucked into a culvert.

Dallas couldn't escape the culvert herself but luckily she was saved and escaped with only minor injuries.

 

[Bob Kittredge]

If I was a new hiker & this July while day hiking Mt. Madison (why I don't know, my girlfriend's name is Madison or I want a job on Madison Ave.) I came across the hut. I never knew they existed. I wnt in used the bathroom where I saw they had bunks, holy mad cow, you mean I could sleep here, great. I'm so exicted I run up & down Madison & head on home. Come Spring next year I start thinking about hiking, I'm going to start my hiking season earlier, say Mother's Day or May 22nd, I'll go & hike Madison again & stay the night this time. I'll bring my friend Jack, he'd love it too.

Is there a sign in the hut that everyone who ventures inside to use the bathroom or check the place out will see that tells everyone...

"This hut is closed from Sept. 14th to June 4th?

Suppose, instead, that you went for a drive and stopped by a hotel to use the john and thought, "what a nice place; I'll have to come back here sometime and spend the night". Would you just show up, or would you call first to find out little things like 1) how much does it cost? 2) do I need a reservation? And in the course of that call wouldn't you be likely to discover whether the hotel is, in fact, open on the day you want to go?

Now actually, you might just show up with the thought, "well, if they cost too much, or are full, or are closed, I'll just get back in my car and find somewhere else". [Actually, I did that once in the Franconia Notch area one July thinking I could easily find a motel room somewhere along Rte 3, and ended up having to drive all the way back to MA. But my goof didn't put myself or my family in serious discomfort or danger.]

 

[sleeping bear]

Chalk it up to inexperience and ignorance. If you don't know that you don't know, well, then you don't know. Unconcious incopetence.

On one of my first backpacking trips I showed up at the visitor center to get a map. I had no idea you needed to make out an itinerary and stick to it, and PAY. What do you mean that site is full?? It's a campsite! The whole thing was very overwhelming and I didn't like it. We had my dog along too. The lady issueing us our permit asked us if we had a dog, I said no. When we got back to the car to drive to the trailhead we decided we shouldn't risk getting a ticket with the dog, so we just left. The whole experiece was very eye opening. I was completey ignorant to how the whole system worked, and was very discouraged by it. It had just never occured to me that camsites might be full, or that you even had to stay at a designated spot! Several years of school and expereince later, I did an internship in that very same visitor center.

It happens. I think the land management agencies do a pretty good job of trying to make these things "idiot proof" but there will always be people who slip through the cracks.

 

[king tut]

I think its healthy to analize situations but jeesh, lets not go overboard here. We are all human, is there not some time in your life where people could go on and on about how dumb you where?

I have done lots of stupid **** in my life, but I have always been willing to accept the consequences, and be able to get out of my own trouble on my own. I'd like to see more stories like Touching The Void. He was able to get himself out of harm's way w/ a frickin broken leg, and severe internal bleeding. People that call for help when they are scared, probably shouldn't have put themselves in positions like that. I don't know the particulars of the case, but they all seem to have a common theme.

One particular case that comes to mind is when I participated in a rescue on Mt Katahdin, and after helping carry a girl down the mt, found out that she probably only had a sprained knee or ankle!! This took considerable time and manpower from lots of people that sacrificed their day to help them out. I was happy to help, b/c I enjoy things like that. But come on... The reason I volunteered is b/c several people have died on the mt, and i didn't want to add another to the list. I know there is a thin line between mild discomfort and potentially life threatening situations, but people should be educated and prepared when undertaking serious endeavors. I wouldn't just grab a hard hat and go play w/ downed electrical powerlines, i would want some knowledge of the subject first.