Mount Madison Rescue

[Tuco]

I wanna go to "Accelerated Rehab"!!!
I firmly believe that those of us who have a knowledge of the mountains, trails, and conditions have a responcibility to share this information whenever we think someone may be about to get themselves into trouble. While they may not always listen, we have to try. It just might save their life.

OK Ross, here goes....stay off the Watson path!!

 

[Cruddy Toes]

"Did the rescuers say where they were when they were found??"

At Treeline - on Madison Gulf trail at Treeline just before the Parapet trail- Going up was the best option to a very steep slippery descent

 

[cbcbd]

I think most of us forget what it is like to be a non-hiker... full of wrong information and perceived fitness...

I've taken a couple non-hiking friends on hikes - friends who one would think were in good shape. I quickly realized the good hiking shape I was in.

So it's easy to say "they should've walked out themselves". A 5-mile hike for us is nothing, for them it was probably something out of their realm of possibility.

They learned their lesson, but I hope this doesn't turn them away from hiking. I hope they continue with hiking and wish to learn more about it.

 

[giggy]

"Tracy has hiked the White Mountains several times before"

still don't see why some are sugar coating this - call it what it is - "bad decsion" after bad decsion". but then again, that is society these days, look for an excuse, its not my fault, cut them some slack, I shouldn't have to pay for my mistakes......................

When a someone gets killed from a DWI or OUI hit - we don't say lets hope they learn - we toss them in the slammer. hey - we have all probably done it and got away with it at some stage.

drive drunk - no accident - no harm - no fallout
drive drunk- kill someone - harm - big time fallout

same can be said for hiking.

got nothing against these folks - and they will learn from this. But I also see no harm in being critical. This is a textbook case of leaving common sense at home.


it think its great tho - that there is this discussion. shows the different attitudes we have towards this issue.

 

[Grumpy]

...When a someone gets killed from a DWI or OUI hit - we don't say lets hope they learn - we toss them in the slammer. hey - we have all probably done it and got away with it at some stage.

drive drunk - no accident - no harm - no fallout
drive drunk- kill someone - harm - big time fallout

same can be said for hiking.

...

Hold on, here. Nobody got hurt in this incident. At worst, we could say some people got "inconvenienced" by going out to do the SAR thing, but it was their choice to do it.

A couple of things that have cropped up in this discussion both amuse and aggravate me. First, there have been several references to 40-degree sleeping bags. I've read the news accounts, but find no mention of anything other than sleeping bags, period. It also has become an assumed part of the conversation here that the party was without flashlights (headlamps). Where did that come from? That question is not addressed in any of the news reports.

Mainly, as for gear, the published comments by authorities are that the party lacked a tent and was not equipped for winter climbing. What does that really mean? No snowshoes, no crampons? Or what?

The point is, let's not be making up things to fill what we see as gaps in the story. And, please, let's not be making up things to fill those gaps with "facts" to support our belief that the three hikers were/are doofuses and to thereby justify our disdain for them.

As I see the story, the three hikers got in over their heads, and realized it as night fell. They wisely retreated to a spot below timberline, where they could find a modicum of shelter. They huddled in their sleeping bags and about 10 pm and wisely used a cell phone to notify authorities of their predicament and location. The authorities assessed the situation, and decided to dispatch a rescue party, which was on the way about 11 pm. The three hikers stayed put and were found around 4:30 or 5 am, evidently where expected. They were able to walk out under their own power, guided by the SAR people. All is well that ends well.

Rather than scold and criticise, maybe we should just take the lesson from this incident, which is how important it is to be properly prepared in every way, ourselves, for the hikes we take.

G.

 

[giggy]

grumpy - I think your missing the point - my point was simple: if making a bad call like not knowing the hut was closed or having a 12 rack prior to driving - results in conseqences, then we pay and should be "scolded".

the way you see the story is dead on - but they still should be scolded. just b/c nobody got hurt here - doesn't make it right. I don't even care about them being rescued to be honest - I just think that the fact that they didn't know the hut was closed shows a big time lack of preparedness and I am not even saying they should be fined - just a bit of public humilation will do the trick!

 

[Grumpy]

grumpy - I think your missing the point - my point was simple: if making a bad call like not knowing the hut was closed or having a 12 rack prior to driving - results in conseqences, then we pay and should be "scolded". ...

I didn't miss the point of the remark at all. I am willing to let the proper authorities determine what, if any "scolding" and penalty these people should receive, based on the full and actual facts of the incident.

The truth of this matter, from what I can see, is that the three rescued hikers made some poor moves that led them into a mess, but also made some good moves that helped get them home safe and sound. That makes it look, to me, like a real "life experience." Beating them up for their mistakes without recognizing their better moves is neither fair nor instructive.

G.

 

[jade]

I see positive reenforcement as the best tool to teach...If someone said to me "come on you stupid idiot, I'm going to teach you a lesson", my ears and mind would shut down....If someone said to me "let go of the mistake (noone was hurt, no damage done), let me share with you what I know about hiking in the Whites then you can pass it on"...I would be open to hearing what the person had to say...I come from relentlessly critical parents and as a result, was fearful of asking for guidance from others...we toddle before we walk, we come home with cuts and bruises while learning to ride a bike, we date the wrong person for waaaay to long, and we may wear jeans and sneakers on our first foray into the mountains...I imagine there are many folks who are new to hiking who are reading our correspondence....let's cut 'em a break and set 'em straight!

Oh ya, and where sunscreen this weekend...except for you my dear giggy...

...Jade

 

[dr_wu002]

I am willing to let the proper authorities determine what, if any "scolding" and penalty these people should receive, based on the full and actual facts of the incident.

This is exactly what's going to happen. We're just part of a discussion board & tossing around opinions. I doubt that any one of us who has participated in this discussion has anything to do with the rescuers, the 3 individuals rescued, or the authority(s) who will determine whether or not a fine (or something) is appropriate.

-Dr. Wu

 

[giggy]

ok I respect that - but disagree - I don't like that "everyone gets a trophy no matter how bad you do" view. It teaches mediocity, laziness, etc.. By focusing on mistakes, maybe one person here will read a weather report - but this is preaching to the choir.

man - I am fired up on this one

 

[JeffAndrews]

It is interesting how looking at the limited facts that we have from a different angle provides a much different percpective on this incident. Thank you Grumpy for your level-headedness!

I thought the use of the phrase "to notify authorities" in regard to their use of their cell phones to be particularly enlightening. I, like many others on this board, jumped to the conclusion that they called whining to be saved.

It does sound like they made some very bad decisions, but also some decent ones. Stumbling around in the dark when you are cold and tired, even with headlamps, is a great way to get badly hurt.

I also agree with the people who have said age shouldn't be pointed to as a factor. Inexperience and hubris, yes, but not age. There are people half my age who have far more experience in the woods than I will ever have. And even at my ripe old age I continue to make bad ones.

Just last year I headed out for a hike at around 7 PM without a headlamp or a flashlight. Granted it was a short hike, it was in CT and it was very warm out, but when I got into a hollow between the two small mountains I was climbing I realized it was getting dark faster than I expected. The really sad thing was that I had a full pack back in the car, headlamp, flashlight, backup batteries, etc., but had decided I wanted to "travel light" because I was rushing to complete a silly "adventure". I knew better, but sometimes I'm just not as smart as I should be and hopefully as I gain experience I will start acting my age. That is, of course, if this old dog can learn new tricks.

 

[Tim Horn]

It seems to me that anyone that needs to be rescued regardless of the reason should pay a standard fee for the services recieved. Eliminate who did what right and wrong and just focus on the fact they needed and recieved help. Just like ambulance service in the city. The rest of the conversation is.....

 

[dug]

It seems to me that anyone that needs to be rescued regardless of the reason should pay a standard fee for the services recieved. Eliminate who did what right and wrong and just focus on the fact they needed and recieved help. Just like ambulance service in the city. The rest of the conversation is.....

So, I'm standing on near the top of Mt. Washington, and a wayward car slams into me and sends me flailing. I need to get carted off the peak. I have to pay?

wow.

 

[David Metsky]

It seems to me that anyone that needs to be rescued regardless of the reason should pay a standard fee for the services recieved. Eliminate who did what right and wrong and just focus on the fact they needed and recieved help. Just like ambulance service in the city. The rest of the conversation is.....

Many S&R people don't want that, because hikers will wait until they are desperate to call for help, instead of when things take a turn for the worse. It can turn what would have been a relatively simple walk out into an agonizing litter carry.

 

[lamerunner]

I thought Jade made a very good point on positive reinforcement, but it kind of defies human nature to refrain from any venting about perceived stupidity. And frankly, if one of them was my child, there would be some criticism before the positive reinforcement. And both would be appropriate.

 

[giggy]

I agree with tim and dug

Someone should have to pay the cost and it shouldn't be the taxpayer. In dugs case - I would think the auto insurance would pay.

In madison case - not sure if any $$ was spent to get them. I admit, I am a bit ignorant on how volenteer SARS works in regards to $$$. They don't get paid, but there is $$ spent somewhere.

Its like tax payer $$ going to a rehab facility. Why should I have to pay for some jerk who decides to get themselves hooked on junk. If they took control of themselevs from the beginning - no need for rehab. If these guys didn't screw up - no need for rescue. Why should someone who doesn't hike have to pay for a hikers rescue.

 

[giggy]

I thought Jade made a very good point on positive reinforcement, but it kind of defies human nature to refrain from any venting about perceived stupidity. And frankly, if one of them was my child, there would be some criticism before the positive reinforcement. And both would be appropriate.

great point!!! and for once - I may agree with jade a bit too!!

 

[cbcbd]

ok I respect that - but disagree - I don't like that "everyone gets a trophy no matter how bad you do" view. It teaches mediocity, laziness, etc..

Funny, my girlfriend and I were just discussing this topic. I was mentioning the fact that the education system always finds a way to have your kid succeed and that many well-to-do folks expect things to always go their way.

We started talking about this because she was watching her friend's daughter (5-6?) playing softball, where there were unlimited strikes - so everyone got to hit and everyone is a winner.

I don't like to see people dumbing things down so everyone can feel like things are just always going their way. I like tough love.

For some reason though, I don't think these kids jumped at calling for help.

 

[dvbl]

...Why should someone who doesn't hike have to pay for a hikers rescue...

For the same reason that adults without children still have a large percentage of their town/city taxes go toward public education. Because society has determined certain things are worth paying for, such as educating children and not letting people die on the side of a mountain. You can agree or disagree about whether that money is ill spent, but that's part of the reason.

 

[Mike P.]

Uneducated children end up as collecting tax dollars, not paying into Social Security & child-less people who retire don't have anyone paying into the system.

(okay in theory what you paid was supposed to be for you, but long living non-working spouses, dependent children, & people living longer than the money they put into SS amongst many more are drains on the system so what we pay now, pays for people now.)

& retiring baby boomers are only going to tax the system more.