MSR Whisperlite Stove

[skiguy]

First, I agree with almost everything that others have said about the Whisperlite. I still love that stove - it saw me through some pretty difficult conditions. The only problem I ever had was once the pump mysteriously stopped pressurizing the fuel bottle. Something in there was clogged - I still don't know how, to this day. I think it might actually have been a result of some water getting in there maybe even from freezing fog. Fortunately, my partner that time had a spare.

I guess the one thing I'd disagree on is the energy content: should be about the same for white gas and isobutane/propane. I don't carry any more isobutane than I did white gas. Same weight, roughly same bulk.

There is no perfect, idiot-proof stove for winter use. But net-net, I like the Reactor a little bit more. In my hands, it does what I want it to do quite a bit easier, quite a bit faster, and with significantly less risk of catastrophic failure.

Here is how I'd characterize the user experience for each stove:
1. Start up
Whisperlite - take stove and fuel bottle out, attach pump to fuel bottle and pump to pressurize (hope your o-rings are ok), unfold legs of stove, attach to fuel bottle, position somewhere relatively flat. If in snow, you should have carried a base of some kind to put the stove on. Unfold windscreen. Carefully fill priming cup half way (hope fuel comes out when you open valve). Light priming cup, place windscreen around stove. Observe carefully. If you're in a tent vestibule, be VERY VERY careful. This part is, like, seriously sketchy in windy, spin-drifty, cramped vestibules. When flame dies down to the perfect size, crack valve until you see a blue flame. Be VERY cognizant of potential flare ups. If you get a blue flame, you're now in a happy space and can go about your business melting snow like a boss.
Reactor - attach stove to fuel canister, place the whole rig in a small bowl of liquid water, light. This is trivial in almost any conditions. You're now in a happy space. Melt snow like a boss.
Obvious question: where do I get some liquid water? A: you saved a couple ounces in your water bottle. Q2: What if I don't have ANY liquid water because I forgot or it all froze? A2: you'll almost certainly still be able to light the Reactor, it'll just run VERY slowly. Melt a little bit of snow, which will only take a couple of minutes. Now you've got your liquid water.
2. Running the stoves
Whisperlite - very straight forward. Just keep her going. You'll need to pump the bottle occasionally to keep the bottle pressurized. Easy. Relax as you drink your soup with the soothing hiss in the background.
Reactor - every couple of liters, you'll need to replenish your liquid water bath. Just dump it out (or back into your pot), put a couple ounces of warm (not boiling) water back in the bowl, continue. Easy. This is all somewhat less relaxing because the Reactor is so freakishly fast that you'll be constantly filling Nalgenes and getting more snow.
3. Finishing up
Whisperlite - Turn fuel valve off. Blow out flame. Try not to be nauseated as white gas vapors assault your lungs and sinuses.
Reactor - Turn it off.

Other odds and ends: the two stoves weigh roughly the same after everything. The Reactor uses a lot less fuel in my hands and boils water much faster. The reactor is easier to start in difficult conditions and much easier to use in a vestibule. The Reactor is much less prone to serious problems, such as a clogged fuel line, broken pump, or leaking o-rings. It is easy (and doesn't weigh very much) to carry a spare Reactor stove top. You don't need an extra fuel canister, pot, or water bowl. So you can have redundancy in this critical item with little weight penalty.

The only hack you need with the Reactor is to bring a small bowl with you to serve as a water bath. I've used it in pretty heavy wind with spindrift blowing into my vestibule at about 10 below zero. This was in the col between Madison and Adams. Actually, for that trip, I had both stoves with me as I was still feeling out what conditions I could use the Reactor in. I first tried to get my Whisperlite started, feeling that it was the more reliable choice in the given condtions, but snow was blowing onto the burner as I was getting it set up, and the priming cup was also filling with snow. It was bad. I was worried the fuel would mix with the snow and create higher probability of flare up, which would not be good in my vestibule. I was actually a little bit gripped right then and there. I set it aside, pulled out my Reactor, and had it going within 30 seconds. It still was not easy - I was trying to get the vestibule sealed up enough that the spindrift would stay out, while also keeping water production going. The wind was just plain nasty. We were flogging ourselves continuously for trying to save the 30 minutes it would have taken us to find a more sheltered spot below treeline. Dumb. But yeah. I'm mighty glad we had the Reactor.

I haven't used a Jetboil, but I think it is not as resistant to wind, it is a little bit more tippy, and the push button igniter can be a bit problematic if you're in freezing fog or other difficult conditions. You still need a water bath to keep the canister warm, but everything works a little bit less good than the Reactor, I think. The requisite hacks seem a bit more problematic.

Using a foil wind screen with a canister stove is scary to me.

Sorry for the novel.

Take that scenario down another 20 degrees F and I’ll take the XGK.

 

[hikerbrian]

Take that scenario down another 20 degrees F and I’ll take the XGK.

I THINK I would too (well, Whisperlite for me). But I’m actually not completely sure. The overall shorter time and effort needed to do pretty much everything makes me think the Reactor might surprise me.

 

[egilbe]

No love for an inverted canister stove? Sheesh, that's all I use in the Winter. So simple. Almost brain-dead operation. I have a Whisperlite Universal. I have a fuel bottle I found on a trail, but never used it. Never found the owner.

 

[DayTrip]

I THINK I would too (well, Whisperlite for me). But I’m actually not completely sure. The overall shorter time and effort needed to do pretty much everything makes me think the Reactor might surprise me.

And just to be clear, we're talking about using the Reactor below zero and simply putting in a shallow water bath is all you do for a temp hack?

 

[DayTrip]

No love for an inverted canister stove? Sheesh, that's all I use in the Winter. So simple. Almost brain-dead operation. I have a Whisperlite Universal. I have a fuel bottle I found on a trail, but never used it. Never found the owner.

THAT'S BRILLIANT! That would seem like the perfect stove and the design solves a variety of problems (low pressure when canister is cold, being able to use a wind screen without heating the canister, etc). And if it is really cold you can go the white gas route. So you really don't have to make a decision. You can do both. So....why is no one else using these? What is the down side??

 

[sierra]

I here you. I love my JetBoil Sumo and would use it all the time if I could. Stupid simple and reliable (at least for what I've used it for to date). In my prior stove questions I felt like the more experienced Winter backpackers were steering me in the direction of a gas stove, although as hikerbrian indicated this is apparently a lively debate. Feels like MSR versus Tubbs with snowshoes.

You know they use canister stoves on Everest, just saying.

 

[DayTrip]

You know they use canister stoves on Everest, just saying.

I do. I actually asked that question last year in my original set of stove questions. I wondered how my stove would not work in the 20's when they had in the Himalayas. The consensus here seemed to be that the temps in their tents were near freezing and the lower air pressure somehow played a role. There were also various hacks discussed in Mark Twight's book Fast And Light that mentioned modifications to the burner that funneled heat onto the canister to keep it warm and working. These however were very dangerous but not uncommon according to Twight. All I know is I've tried boiling 1L of water in my Sumo with temps in the low 20's and the best I could do after 10 minutes was the formation of bubbles - no hacks involved though. Wanted to see how it would work "out of the pack". I subsequent posts many of the hacks mentioned here were discussed.

 

[dave.m]

These are exactly the kind of things that have me a little uneasy about switching to this type of stove. It just sounds like the canister stoves are too "iffy" when it gets cold. Not sure what's worse - no working stove to make food and water or a leaky stove that turns into a pyrotechnic display. The white gas stoves seem fussy even when you know what you're doing.

I'm known for having strong opinions on equipment. I hold no stronger opinion than my devotion to the Svea 123 for winter camping.

IMO, equipment is about trade-offs. The thing about the Svea is that it will always light for me and has never had any mechanical failure in over 30 years of regular use. When the stove was just over 30 years old, I finally replaced the wick. I've also replaced the filler cap/safety valve a few times. That's the sum total of the maintenance I've had to do on this stove. There are next to no moving parts and really nothing on the stove to fail.

The cost of this reliability is knowledge and practice. The priming ritual isn't hard but it does take experience. It would be a lousy stove to the kind of person who wants a take it out of the box and just have it work simply type of experience.

I don't worry about parts on my Svea busting while in the field. I don't' worry about it being too cold for the stove to operate. I don't worry about canisters loosing fuel with no explaination (We had this happen on a group trip and luckily I had my Svea and I was able to cook for a group of 10 with it, although we did need to bum some fuel for the last night).

One of my kids got involved in an outdoor leadership program in college and she got a new Svea from me. My son plans on doing the same thing and I'll give him the same stove. They both have learned how to use them on family trips. If my kids are going to be in the woods in the cold, I want them to have a stove that i know will work.

If you put a gun to my head and told me I had to winter camp in New England without a white gas stove, I would give serious consideration to the full sized Trangia system with the integrated pot, stand and windscreen. Alcohol stoves get heavy in cold weather due to fuel consumption, but they are utterly fail proof too. They are even more reliable than the Svea and I trust my life to my Svea.

 

[hikerbrian]

And just to be clear, we're talking about using the Reactor below zero and simply putting in a shallow water bath is all you do for a temp hack?

Yes, that's it. I keep my winter rig very simple whenever possible.

I considered an inverted stove, but I didn't know anyone who had one and had taken it out in difficult conditions, so I wasn't comfortable pulling the trigger. As I understand it, they actually behave a bit more like a white gas stove without a pump, in that you're actually using the propane pressure to push liquid fuel into the stove; it has to be heated at some point in order to vaporize. So I assume you have to prime it? And is there a fuel loop that passes through the flame, similar to the Whisperlite? I also wondered how fast the inverted stove actually was, if it could compete with the Reactor on boil times from snow. Again, without some local knowledge I wasn't comfortable with it. May very well be a great stove.

 

[Chachie]

No love for an inverted canister stove? Sheesh, that's all I use in the Winter. So simple. Almost brain-dead operation. I have a Whisperlite Universal. I have a fuel bottle I found on a trail, but never used it. Never found the owner.

I'll second that. The Whisperlite Universal allows the user (by changing the jet and fuel adapter) to use an inverted iso-fuel canister. A stand is included to hold the canister inverted. This has proven very useful when I've run low on liquid fuel and others in my party had only canisters; which were not functioning well in the cold temps.

It's clunky and chunky, but I love the Whisperlite Universal. It burns white-gas, kerosene, gasoline, and iso-canister. The maintenance is easy and infrequent; the parts can be a bit fiddley (but if you like wrenching on things can provide enjoyment).

Lastly, I find that my Whisperlite can simmer decently. I think that MSR has improved this function with newer models.

 

[dave.m]

Not sure what's worse - no working stove to make food and water or a leaky stove that turns into a pyrotechnic display. The white gas stoves seem fussy even when you know what you're doing.

I would never describe my Svea as leaky.

Nor would I call it fussy. "Fussy" suggests unpredictable. The Svea, like all white has stoves needs to be primed. If you don't learn how to prime the stove, it will be frustrating to start, just like shifting a stick shift car is frustrating to the uninitiated. Like a stick shift, the trick with a white gas stove is to learn the priming so that it becomes second nature. Once done, you can do it without thought. I don't consider stick shifts fussy. They just demand a combination of knowledge and practice. Once learned, they are easy and reliable. This is why I recommend boiling water daily for a month on a new stove.

Most stoves including most canister stoves can fail if over heated. Canisters just go bang. Alcohol stoves can have the fuel boil over and spill. The Svea can likewise be over heated with a wind screen. The filler cap is the safety valve and I can attest that they work. One learns not to over heat a stove.

The external fuel bottle stoves attempt to avoid the over heating problem by moving the fuel tank away from the flame. This adds a lot of complexity as you then rely on numerous hose fittings and the need for s pump to pressurize the tank. IMO, these complexities are what make that style of stove "fiddly". You literally need to fiddle with more mechanical thingies.

If you lived local, I'd loan you a Svea. Several days of practice would make you confident. Several weeks would make it second nature.

 

[JoshandBaron]

I'm known for having strong opinions on equipment. I hold no stronger opinion than my devotion to the Svea 123 for winter camping.

IMO, equipment is about trade-offs. The thing about the Svea is that it will always light for me and has never had any mechanical failure in over 30 years of regular use. When the stove was just over 30 years old, I finally replaced the wick. I've also replaced the filler cap/safety valve a few times. That's the sum total of the maintenance I've had to do on this stove. There are next to no moving parts and really nothing on the stove to fail.

The cost of this reliability is knowledge and practice. The priming ritual isn't hard but it does take experience. It would be a lousy stove to the kind of person who wants a take it out of the box and just have it work simply type of experience.

I don't worry about parts on my Svea busting while in the field. I don't' worry about it being too cold for the stove to operate. I don't worry about canisters loosing fuel with no explaination (We had this happen on a group trip and luckily I had my Svea and I was able to cook for a group of 10 with it, although we did need to bum some fuel for the last night).

One of my kids got involved in an outdoor leadership program in college and she got a new Svea from me. My son plans on doing the same thing and I'll give him the same stove. They both have learned how to use them on family trips. If my kids are going to be in the woods in the cold, I want them to have a stove that i know will work.

If you put a gun to my head and told me I had to winter camp in New England without a white gas stove, I would give serious consideration to the full sized Trangia system with the integrated pot, stand and windscreen. Alcohol stoves get heavy in cold weather due to fuel consumption, but they are utterly fail proof too. They are even more reliable than the Svea and I trust my life to my Svea.

I second everything about this. I only use a Svea or alcohol. My Svea is almost 40 years old at this point and is still 100% original parts. No yearly maintenance required. No bottle to pump. Once it's going it just goes. The only thing that's ever prevented it from working was old fuel. It doesn't throw as much heat as a WL but I'm usually boiling while my friends are still setting up their WL. On single night trips you don't even need a fuel bottle beyond something small for priming if you don't have a pump. Plus it sounds way cooler than a WL.

As far as alcohol, I've used my Trangia down to -13. It takes forever but it gets the job done when a can can't.

 

[hikerbrian]

So, at Kinsman shelter last winter, a bunch of us were melting snow; it was warmish, maybe 20 degrees, and breezy. Right next to each other were several Whisperlites, my Reactor, and a Svea. This was actually the first time I'd seen a Svea. I was intrigued as I've heard so many positive comments on this forum. The guy using it said he'd had it for a long time and really liked the stove. Anyway, if I were to generalize my observations, here they are:

My Reactor was up and running the fastest, and I think I had a liter boiling before anyone else had started actually melting snow. This is not an exaggeration. Another party was unable to get their Whisperlite going, and I didn't have time to figure out why as I was keeping tabs on my own group. We supplied them with hot water.

Once up and running, the Whisperlites were very low maintenance. People just added more snow and that was that. The Reactor required me to change out the bath water every few liters. This was easy under the conditions. The Svea, like the Whisperlites, just kept on keeping on with little requisite fussing.

By far, the Reactor turned snow to boiling water the fastest. It had to have been close to twice as fast as the Whisperlites. The Svea was the surprise: it was very slow. Maybe this was because of the wind? There was a substantial breeze blowing through, and without a windscreen the Svea seemed to really suffer. In fact, we ended up supplying the Svea user with water as well.

I estimated that I got about 8-10 L of boiling water out of my 8 oz fuel canister. Its heat output seemed pretty constant right until it went out quite suddenly (and the canister was empty).

So Svea users, can you comment on wind susceptibility, and speed in general in comparison to the other stoves? The stove definitely worked and didn't require a lot of fussing, but it was slow. Like, REALLY slow.

 

[JoshandBaron]

So, at Kinsman shelter last winter, a bunch of us were melting snow; it was warmish, maybe 20 degrees, and breezy. Right next to each other were several Whisperlites, my Reactor, and a Svea. This was actually the first time I'd seen a Svea. I was intrigued as I've heard so many positive comments on this forum. The guy using it said he'd had it for a long time and really liked the stove. Anyway, if I were to generalize my observations, here they are:

My Reactor was up and running the fastest, and I think I had a liter boiling before anyone else had started actually melting snow. This is not an exaggeration. Another party was unable to get their Whisperlite going, and I didn't have time to figure out why as I was keeping tabs on my own group. We supplied them with hot water.

Once up and running, the Whisperlites were very low maintenance. People just added more snow and that was that. The Reactor required me to change out the bath water every few liters. This was easy under the conditions. The Svea, like the Whisperlites, just kept on keeping on with little requisite fussing.

By far, the Reactor turned snow to boiling water the fastest. It had to have been close to twice as fast as the Whisperlites. The Svea was the surprise: it was very slow. Maybe this was because of the wind? There was a substantial breeze blowing through, and without a windscreen the Svea seemed to really suffer. In fact, we ended up supplying the Svea user with water as well.

I estimated that I got about 8-10 L of boiling water out of my 8 oz fuel canister. Its heat output seemed pretty constant right until it went out quite suddenly (and the canister was empty).

So Svea users, can you comment on wind susceptibility, and speed in general in comparison to the other stoves? The stove definitely worked and didn't require a lot of fussing, but it was slow. Like, REALLY slow.

If I remember correctly, the WL throws something like 10-12000 BTU while the SVEA only about 8500. A taller windscreen definitely improves performance. I just use some heavy duty aluminum foil usually. Some model Sveas don't have the pin that comes up and clears out the jet when set to simmer, cleaning that out makes a difference. Burning lower quality fuel at lower settings can gum it up and lead to an uneven flame but a quick couple turns to simmer and it's clear and running like a B52 again.

 

[dave.m]

So, at Kinsman shelter last winter, a bunch of us were melting snow; it was warmish, maybe 20 degrees, and breezy. Right next to each other were several Whisperlites, my Reactor, and a Svea. This was actually the first time I'd seen a Svea. I was intrigued as I've heard so many positive comments on this forum. The guy using it said he'd had it for a long time and really liked the stove. Anyway, if I were to generalize my observations, here they are:

My Reactor was up and running the fastest, and I think I had a liter boiling before anyone else had started actually melting snow. This is not an exaggeration. Another party was unable to get their Whisperlite going, and I didn't have time to figure out why as I was keeping tabs on my own group. We supplied them with hot water.

Once up and running, the Whisperlites were very low maintenance. People just added more snow and that was that. The Reactor required me to change out the bath water every few liters. This was easy under the conditions. The Svea, like the Whisperlites, just kept on keeping on with little requisite fussing.

By far, the Reactor turned snow to boiling water the fastest. It had to have been close to twice as fast as the Whisperlites. The Svea was the surprise: it was very slow. Maybe this was because of the wind? There was a substantial breeze blowing through, and without a windscreen the Svea seemed to really suffer. In fact, we ended up supplying the Svea user with water as well.

I estimated that I got about 8-10 L of boiling water out of my 8 oz fuel canister. Its heat output seemed pretty constant right until it went out quite suddenly (and the canister was empty).

So Svea users, can you comment on wind susceptibility, and speed in general in comparison to the other stoves? The stove definitely worked and didn't require a lot of fussing, but it was slow. Like, REALLY slow.

I'm guessing your Svea user was not only not using a windscreen (required) but also not an insulating base (also required, IME)?


On a trip on Osceola (-15f that night) we needed to stop and melt snow for water on the hike out to Tripoli Rd. I easily out melted my buddy who was using an XGK.

IME, both a windscreen and an insulated base are need to push the Svea into deep cold.

Regarding windscreens, the "windscreen" on the Svea is a pot stand, not really a windscreen. I use an MSR folding aluminum screen. I put the the controls and an opening in the screen to the lee to minimize risk of overheating. The screen needs to be high and close enough to the pot on the windward side to prevent wind from taking away the flame.

Regarding the base, like many stoves, the Svea relies on heat to maintain its prime and performance. Sitting directly on snow/ice can draw out heat and with it, the prime, and when the prime is drawn out by the cold, performance suffers. I use a round disk of plywood cut to fit inside of my pot.

 

[peakbagger]

My most impressive flaming stove experience was with an old Optimus box stove. Someone was heating a large pot of water and using tin foil to act as a wind shield with the stove cranked up to max. Suddenly flames erupted and there was pressurized fuel spraying in a column of fire quite a far distance from the stove. If it was in tent the tent would be gone. A relief valve had opened up and was spraying fuel out of the tank. It was kicked into the snow from in front of lean to and once cooled off it was started right up again. I have never had a flame event with my whisperlight but have had an o-ring failure as I hadnt not greased it in awhile. I think the owner of it bought it in college and he still uses it in his seventies. No doubt it will be passed on to his family if he doesn't lose it.

I did get one of the defective early MSR Dragonflys with the plastic pump. It didnt leak but when the plastic ears broke off, the stove was useless. Its my group cooking/car camping stove as it simmers so I wasnt worried about backcountry and they also redesigned the pump later on. Somewhere along the way I picked up a spare pump in an AT shelter that looks like someone tried to run motor oil through it. I degunked it and its now my primary pump.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

So Svea users, can you comment on wind susceptibility, and speed in general in comparison to the other stoves? The stove definitely worked and didn't require a lot of fussing, but it was slow. Like, REALLY slow.

I have too many stoves (wood, alcohol, canister, two types of white gas stoves) and enjoy using them all. But I LOVE LOVE LOVE my SVEA 123R. I bring it on solo, long weekend trips any time of the year.

As others have stated, learn how to prime it under various conditions and it is the most reliable gas stove ever invented. In high Summer, you can prime it with the friction/warmth of your hands !

I agree that the SVEA's integral windscreen will lead to very long melt / boil times in a windy winter environment. I bring a tall foldable windscreen and a small round piece of plywood for base on the snow when using my SVEA 123R in the winter. (Obviously I have read Dave's ancient web page on how to prime and operate a SVEA).

I am careful to use the windscreen as a windscreen and NOT as a heat reflector. I don't need the windscreen in the other three seasons.

Will this thread bring out the SVEAphiles like SARDOG ?

 

[skiguy]

I do. I actually asked that question last year in my original set of stove questions. I wondered how my stove would not work in the 20's when they had in the Himalayas. The consensus here seemed to be that the temps in their tents were near freezing and the lower air pressure somehow played a role.

Calling Doug Paul!

 

[sierra]

I do. I actually asked that question last year in my original set of stove questions. I wondered how my stove would not work in the 20's when they had in the Himalayas. The consensus here seemed to be that the temps in their tents were near freezing and the lower air pressure somehow played a role. There were also various hacks discussed in Mark Twight's book Fast And Light that mentioned modifications to the burner that funneled heat onto the canister to keep it warm and working. These however were very dangerous but not uncommon according to Twight. All I know is I've tried boiling 1L of water in my Sumo with temps in the low 20's and the best I could do after 10 minutes was the formation of bubbles - no hacks involved though. Wanted to see how it would work "out of the pack". I subsequent posts many of the hacks mentioned here were discussed.

I think I know why, they have no canister issues on Everest. They are so bad ass, the stove is afraid to fail.

 

[dave.m]

My most impressive flaming stove experience was with an old Optimus box stove. Someone was heating a large pot of water and using tin foil to act as a wind shield with the stove cranked up to max. Suddenly flames erupted and there was pressurized fuel spraying in a column of fire quite a far distance from the stove. If it was in tent the tent would be gone. A relief valve had opened up and was spraying fuel out of the tank. It was kicked into the snow from in front of lean to and once cooled off it was started right up again. I have never had a flame event with my whisperlight but have had an o-ring failure as I hadnt not greased it in awhile. I think the owner of it bought it in college and he still uses it in his seventies. No doubt it will be passed on to his family if he doesn't lose it.

I did the same thing with my Svea while bike touring in Yellowstone in the 80s. As Colin Fletcher correctly notes, the safety valve releasing and producing a 3 foot stream of flame is only slightly less exciting than an explosion. As you describe, after letting the stove cool down, it started right back up. I did replace the filler cap at the first store we found but that wasn't until Dubois, WY so a week or so later in the trip.

I count the 2 MSR melt-downs I've seen as more frightening. In both cases, the pump assemblies were burning, melting and starting to erupt heated gas. Luckily Crag requires the use of stove boards so it was possible to shuttle the flaming masses out to the snow easily.

My MSR suspicion noted and set aside, I believe pretty much any white gas stove can be safe and reliable given proper user knowledge. I would have to think that any of the MSR melt-downs I've seen would have been avoided had they been more actively maintained.