NH Fish And Game Seeking Help With Missing Hiker

[Mike P.]

I think it's more the age of Emily than Gender and whether she was pretty or not. The fact mom drove her to her date with destiny is even more heartbreaking as a parent of two kids roughly her age. To me this feels more like Derek Tinkham's death. Derek went with his friend who did all the pumping up of the trip and the mountains that people can get in FB groups. He blindly followed his friend into the teeth of a bad storm trusting his friend. Emily was solo but she blindly trusted that her summer experience would be enough on a cold but snow free November Day, the weekend before when she probably planned her trip it was 70.

While bad weather can happen anytime, especially above treeline, April, October and November may be the most unpredictable, especially for those with limited experience in late fall and early Spring. In April as we know, trailheads may be bare but rotting snow and your first lessons on the monorail are tiresome. In the fall, cool temps at the trailhead may bring winter-like conditions higher up. (I know for my first few years, "winter-like", was in my vocabulary for snowy hikes in late November and early December. Over time, I dropped it as those conditions are just expected 30-50 days before or after the actual season.)

All deaths hurt the families of the deceased. No parent should outlive their child. Childhood deaths are even sadder, we however are on a hiking board so outdoors are what we know. (You don't want be providing medical info on cancer) Yes, an Asian man died and that was sad. (off the top of my head, 53? YO, still too soon but over 2.5x Emily's age)

We know this will happen again, however, should we try and get knowledge out more. Does that mean opening VFTT to new members without the referral process. Like you all, but Day-trip is like the newbie and he's been here and hiking 15-20 years.

Should we open the ivory tower and let others enter? Could the links in FB be more prominent? VFTT is the last link. Could the Higher summits conditions always be on top of the page? Right now, it's just a selfie page for bragging and asking the same question over and over. In the 90's Dave M. and I must have answered Mt. Washington questions on the AMC boards 2-5 times a week

Should the hiking community try and do more? Are FaceBook groups part of the hiking community? More importantly, do they think they are? (I'd guess yes, as it may provide the owners of thinking they are contributing to something other than Zuck's Products to sell to his customers. As TCD mentioned, FB users are the product.)

 

[NHClimber]

It's the same phenomenon in the positive direction with idol worship of sports figures, music persona, etc. People getting hysterical screaming and crying, passing out, etc. I'll never understand that level of fanaticism from someone you only know from the TV.

And politicians. So many people idolize them. Never will understand that. Meet the new boss...Same as the old boss...

Resist the drama folks. Resist the drama. And resist the virtue signaling. But it is ok to have some level of compassion.

 

[TEO]

I think it's more the age of Emily than Gender and whether she was pretty or not. The fact mom drove her to her date with destiny is even more heartbreaking as a parent of two kids roughly her age. [snip] Emily was solo but she blindly trusted that her summer experience would be enough on a cold but snow free November Day, the weekend before when she probably planned her trip it was 70.

I agree. She was just a kid and had no idea what she was getting in to.

 

[iAmKrzys]

This hiker being missing was publicized in a large Facebook group early on, so attention was building up fast as people were reading about it (FB pushes trending post to the top of the feed) and there was no quick conclusion to the SAR effort. I'm not really surprised that a lot of people felt compelled to comment on this.

Also, I can see how millennials would find it easier to relate, kind of like: "Oh $&!#, it could be me! I do similar stuff every other week!"

 

[egilbe]

Is that something you have documented in any way that is shareable and if so would you share it? I frequent the Presi's on most of my hikes and have some notes on places I get water but a comprehensive list would be a great tool. Understand completely if you'd prefer not to.

I don't have anything documented, no. I'll see if I can find the gps tracks from Gaia. We did use it for some of our hikes to make sure we were where we thought we were. Mostly, we were right.

 

[sierra]

I think it's more the age of Emily than Gender and whether she was pretty or not. The fact mom drove her to her date with destiny is even more heartbreaking as a parent of two kids roughly her age. To me this feels more like Derek Tinkham's death. Derek went with his friend who did all the pumping up of the trip and the mountains that people can get in FB groups. He blindly followed his friend into the teeth of a bad storm trusting his friend. Emily was solo but she blindly trusted that her summer experience would be enough on a cold but snow free November Day, the weekend before when she probably planned her trip it was 70.

While bad weather can happen anytime, especially above treeline, April, October and November may be the most unpredictable, especially for those with limited experience in late fall and early Spring. In April as we know, trailheads may be bare but rotting snow and your first lessons on the monorail are tiresome. In the fall, cool temps at the trailhead may bring winter-like conditions higher up. (I know for my first few years, "winter-like", was in my vocabulary for snowy hikes in late November and early December. Over time, I dropped it as those conditions are just expected 30-50 days before or after the actual season.)

All deaths hurt the families of the deceased. No parent should outlive their child. Childhood deaths are even sadder, we however are on a hiking board so outdoors are what we know. (You don't want be providing medical info on cancer) Yes, an Asian man died and that was sad. (off the top of my head, 53? YO, still too soon but over 2.5x Emily's age)

We know this will happen again, however, should we try and get knowledge out more. Does that mean opening VFTT to new members without the referral process. Like you all, but Day-trip is like the newbie and he's been here and hiking 15-20 years.

Should we open the ivory tower and let others enter? Could the links in FB be more prominent? VFTT is the last link. Could the Higher summits conditions always be on top of the page? Right now, it's just a selfie page for bragging and asking the same question over and over. In the 90's Dave M. and I must have answered Mt. Washington questions on the AMC boards 2-5 times a week

Should the hiking community try and do more? Are FaceBook groups part of the hiking community? More importantly, do they think they are? (I'd guess yes, as it may provide the owners of thinking they are contributing to something other than Zuck's Products to sell to his customers. As TCD mentioned, FB users are the product.)

I am not sure how much more information can be available to learn what you should know? You think Emily would have come to VFTT to learn how to hike? It's not the lack of information that's the problem, it's that these inexperienced hikers, don't even know, what they don't know. I've honestly given this some serious thought and I have no idea how to prevent these accidents, none.

 

[iAmKrzys]

Is that something you have documented in any way that is shareable and if so would you share it? I frequent the Presi's on most of my hikes and have some notes on places I get water but a comprehensive list would be a great tool. Understand completely if you'd prefer not to.

Some water sources are marked on OpenStreetMap - they show up as little blue circles in current map visualization. For example here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.30997/-71.31280 you should be able to find Spaulding Spring and Gulfside Spring. The problem is that they are not easy to find in a systematic way. One thing you can try is to select area of them map and use "Export" button - it will dump raw data behind the rendered map in XML format which you can load into a text editor and search for a word "spring". If you find it, you will get coordinates as part of the record like this:

<node id="6993406550" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3116913" lon="-71.3128582">
<tag k="name" v="Spaulding Spring"/>
<tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
</node>

or

<node id="6993434722" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3097323" lon="-71.3125039">
<tag k="name" v="Gulfside Spring"/>
<tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
</node>

Apologies for a thread drift.

 

[DayTrip]

I don't have anything documented, no. I'll see if I can find the gps tracks from Gaia. We did use it for some of our hikes to make sure we were where we thought we were. Mostly, we were right.

Don't trouble yourself with all that. The way you worded it I thought maybe you had a list of waypoint coordinates or something for sources. That is what I used to do when I was really tracking my hiking activity but my official list is lost somewhere in the bowels of my computer. Probably something I should start over with now that my memory is starting to fade with age....

 

[DayTrip]

Some water sources are marked on OpenStreetMap - they show up as little blue circles in current map visualization. For example here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.30997/-71.31280 you should be able to find Spaulding Spring and Gulfside Spring. The problem is that they are not easy to find in a systematic way. One thing you can try is to select area of them map and use "Export" button - it will dump raw data behind the rendered map in XML format which you can load into a text editor and search for a word "spring". If you find it, you will get coordinates as part of the record like this:

<node id="6993406550" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3116913" lon="-71.3128582">
<tag k="name" v="Spaulding Spring"/>
<tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
</node>

or

<node id="6993434722" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3097323" lon="-71.3125039">
<tag k="name" v="Gulfside Spring"/>
<tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
</node>

Apologies for a thread drift.
View attachment 6933

Excellent. Thanks for that info. I generally use CalTop and Gaia for mapping purposes and they show the "typical" sources. I like to flag small, reliable brooks and similar spots with GPS coordinates that don't show up on most maps and are not official springs.

 

[maineguy]

Some water sources are marked on OpenStreetMap - they show up as little blue circles in current map visualization. For example here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.30997/-71.31280 you should be able to find Spaulding Spring and Gulfside Spring. The problem is that they are not easy to find in a systematic way. One thing you can try is to select area of them map and use "Export" button - it will dump raw data behind the rendered map in XML format which you can load into a text editor and search for a word "spring". If you find it, you will get coordinates as part of the record like this:

<node id="6993406550" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3116913" lon="-71.3128582">
<tag k="name" v="Spaulding Spring"/>
<tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
</node>

or

<node id="6993434722" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3097323" lon="-71.3125039">
<tag k="name" v="Gulfside Spring"/>
<tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
</node>

Apologies for a thread drift.
View attachment 6933

Were you able to locate the spring that used to supply the Nauman Shelters (off the Webster Cliff Trail)?

 

[NHClimber]

I am not sure how much more information can be available to learn what you should know? You think Emily would have come to VFTT to learn how to hike? It's not the lack of information that's the problem, it's that these inexperienced hikers, don't even know, what they don't know. I've honestly given this some serious thought and I have no idea how to prevent these accidents, none.

This is the bottom line.

 

[TEO]

I am not sure how much more information can be available to learn what you should know? You think Emily would have come to VFTT to learn how to hike? It's not the lack of information that's the problem, it's that these inexperienced hikers, don't even know, what they don't know. I've honestly given this some serious thought and I have no idea how to prevent these accidents, none.

(A) Recognize that the Socials are a significant part of the problem. They encourage people with their superficial "Look at me!—You're so awesome!" interactions to complete challenges with little interpersonal mentorship and education, no accepted responsibility. It's time to stop lauding people on social media for hiking 4k'ers and completing the WM48 and other popular lists. Responses should include, "Big deal, so have 20,000 other people." "So do you volunteer for trail work or are you just a part of the problem?"


(B) The AMC 4k'er Committee should stop awarding patches and fold up shop. Other than use some of peoples' application fees towards funding AMC trailcrew projects, what good do they do? Ask people to join the AMC? [rolls eyes]

Contrast the AMC 4k'er Committee's lack of action to the Adirondack Forty-Sixers active stewardship and conservation. The Adirondack Forty-Sixers has a dedicated volunteer trail crew, provides trailhead stewards, funds pro trail crews and summit stewards, for more than 50 years has offered a weekend-long Outdoor Skills Workshop costing $20, offers up to $100 reimbursement for a Wilderness First Aid course to any 46er or aspiring 46er or person who has complete the Outdoor Skills Workshop, offers four full scholarships annually for the DEC Conservation Camp, has 'adopted' 6 miles of Rt 73, mentors aspiring 46ers through its Correspondants program, and gives away tens of thousands of dollars a year to the above and more conservation programs. It is an active, vibrant conservation organization, made up of people who are part of the problem working hard to miitigate and reduce the problem.

 

[dug]

(A) Recognize that the Socials are a significant part of the problem. They encourage people with their superficial "Look at me!—You're so awesome!" interactions to complete challenges with little interpersonal mentorship and education, no accepted responsibility. It's time to stop lauding people on social media for hiking 4k'ers and completing the WM48 and other popular lists. Responses should include, "Big deal, so have 20,000 other people." "So do you volunteer for trail work or are you just a part of the problem?"


(B) The AMC 4k'er Committee should stop awarding patches and fold up shop. Other than use some of peoples' application fees towards funding AMC trailcrew projects, what good do they do? Ask people to join the AMC? [rolls eyes]

Contrast the AMC 4k'er Committee's lack of action to the Adirondack Forty-Sixers active stewardship and conservation. The Adirondack Forty-Sixers has a dedicated volunteer trail crew, provides trailhead stewards, funds pro trail crews and summit stewards, for more than 50 years has offered a weekend-long Outdoor Skills Workshop costing $20, offers up to $100 reimbursement for a Wilderness First Aid course to any 46er or aspiring 46er or person who has complete the Outdoor Skills Workshop, offers four full scholarships annually for the DEC Conservation Camp, has 'adopted' 6 miles of Rt 73, mentors aspiring 46ers through its Correspondants program, and gives away tens of thousands of dollars a year to the above and more conservation programs. It is an active, vibrant conservation organization, made up of people who are part of the problem working hard to miitigate and reduce the problem.

Do you include VFFT in this assessment?

 

[ChrisB]

(A)... the Adirondack Forty-Sixers has a dedicated volunteer trail crew, provides trailhead stewards, funds pro trail crews and summit stewards, for more than 50 years has offered a weekend-long Outdoor Skills Workshop costing $20, offers up to $100 reimbursement for a Wilderness First Aid course to any 46er or aspiring 46er or person who has complete the Outdoor Skills Workshop, offers four full scholarships annually for the DEC Conservation Camp, has 'adopted' 6 miles of Rt 73, mentors aspiring 46ers through its Correspondants program, and gives away tens of thousands of dollars a year to the above and more conservation programs. It is an active, vibrant conservation organization, made up of people who are part of the problem working hard to miitigate and reduce the problem.

I think there are two major differences between the Dacks and Whites:

1. The Whites have a lot more potentially deadly terrain than NY. The amount and nature of above treeline hikes in NH is also more dangerous due to weather patterns and storm tracks, esp in Winter.

2. The Whites are much closer to population centers than the High Peaks and thus more accessible. This drives usage, beginner and expert. (Be interesting to compare number of folks who summit Lafayette in winter vs. Marcy.)

 

[JoshandBaron]

I think there are two major differences between the Dacks and Whites:



2. The Whites are much closer to population centers than the High Peaks and thus more accessible. This drives usage, beginner and expert. (Be interesting to compare number of folks who summit Lafayette in winter vs. Marcy.)

Both regions have similar visitor numbers (6 million, 7 million) and proximity to population centers (70 million within a day's drive, 60 million within a day's drive).

 

[DayTrip]

I think there are two major differences between the Dacks and Whites:

1. The Whites have a lot more potentially deadly terrain than NY. The amount and nature of above treeline hikes in NH is also more dangerous due to weather patterns and storm tracks, esp in Winter.

2. The Whites are much closer to population centers than the High Peaks and thus more accessible. This drives usage, beginner and expert. (Be interesting to compare number of folks who summit Lafayette in winter vs. Marcy.)

I have limited experience in the Adirondacks but I'd push back on the Whites having "far more" deadly terrain. Most of the peaks in the 'Daks are pretty remote and have far longer approaches vs NH, much steeper cols with more vertical ascent in between peaks versus the Whites, and I would argue require better route finding skills. I don't know how fatalities, # of rescues, etc. stack up versus NH but I'd expect they are the same or worse (and that encompasses a more organized and comprehensive state SAR program as many of our NY members have chronicled in the past versus NH's volunteer based system). The weather gets plenty nasty in NY too. Maybe they don't have a Mt Washington but the High Peaks are plenty nasty in their own right on a bad day.

I'd also argue that the accessibility of the Whites, leads to more people on the trails, which leads to better conditions in some cases (i.e. packed trails in Winter) and the increased likelihood of someone stumbling across you if you run into trouble. Everyone basically takes the same routes to all the "checkmarks"...

 

[TEO]

Do you include VFFT in this assessment?

No, because it is a discussion-based forum which promotes an exchange of ideas, including feedback and criticism.

OTH, especially in its heyday, I do feel that the forum contributes to overuse and a loss-of-wildness, though not close to the scale of the Socials. The biggest impact may be on popularizing once seldom-visited places. (Popular being relative.) On this point, I am knowingly hypocritical, in that my favorite TRs have been those of seldom-visited locations, and some I have been inspired to visit myself.

To it's great credit, the AdkHighPeaks Forum recognized the impact that it was having and changed some of its policies, removed content, and created the HighPeaksFoundation, which gave away tens of thousands of dollars in conservation support and led to the rehabilitation and maintenance of the Mt. Adams Fire Tower.

 

[sierra]

(A) Recognize that the Socials are a significant part of the problem. They encourage people with their superficial "Look at me!—You're so awesome!" interactions to complete challenges with little interpersonal mentorship and education, no accepted responsibility. It's time to stop lauding people on social media for hiking 4k'ers and completing the WM48 and other popular lists. Responses should include, "Big deal, so have 20,000 other people." "So do you volunteer for trail work or are you just a part of the problem?"


(B) The AMC 4k'er Committee should stop awarding patches and fold up shop. Other than use some of peoples' application fees towards funding AMC trailcrew projects, what good do they do? Ask people to join the AMC? [rolls eyes]

Contrast the AMC 4k'er Committee's lack of action to the Adirondack Forty-Sixers active stewardship and conservation. The Adirondack Forty-Sixers has a dedicated volunteer trail crew, provides trailhead stewards, funds pro trail crews and summit stewards, for more than 50 years has offered a weekend-long Outdoor Skills Workshop costing $20, offers up to $100 reimbursement for a Wilderness First Aid course to any 46er or aspiring 46er or person who has complete the Outdoor Skills Workshop, offers four full scholarships annually for the DEC Conservation Camp, has 'adopted' 6 miles of Rt 73, mentors aspiring 46ers through its Correspondants program, and gives away tens of thousands of dollars a year to the above and more conservation programs. It is an active, vibrant conservation organization, made up of people who are part of the problem working hard to miitigate and reduce the problem.

I couldn't agree more with A, it is one of the most self-gratuitous platforms out there (FB). Every time I see a trip report for Franconia Ridge I cringe. Not only because they lull people into hiking it, but the ecological damage being done up there is just heartbreaking. All that work that Guy Waterman did is just about pointless now. 200 hundred people on the summit of Lafeyette at one time, I'm all set with that. That's why me and my dog live on the 52wav peaks now, quiet and unnoticed by the FB masses, (so far). As far as B goes, I get the point but I'm not sure that's really fair. Why penalize people for what irresponsible people do? Although there is certainly merit to the idea. I read a trip report from a girl that climbed Carrigain in the cold rain to finish the 48 because she was moving away. She ended up stopping on the trail and breaking down in crying hysterics because she was so miserable. Damn, when I did the 48 back in the 80's every single peak was sheer joy, funny thing is, I don't even remember the finish. Of course back then nobody even knew what I did except my Mom, lol. I sent in for my patch and just kept hiking, no fan fair whatsoever. I don't climb in the Dack's but it sounds like they have some great programs out there, with or without the AMC. I did rock climb out there once, took a hellava fall off Poko Moonshine, a deep brooding cliff that scared the Hell out of me.

 

[maineguy]

I don't climb in the Dack's but it sounds like they have some great programs out there, with or without the AMC. I did rock climb out there once, took a hellava fall off Poko Moonshine, a deep brooding cliff that scared the Hell out of me.

Climbing the 46 is an entirely different and I believe more rewarding, experience than the NH4K. And, the 46ers do great work in those mountains.

 

[dug]

No, because it is a discussion-based forum which promotes an exchange of ideas, including feedback and criticism.

OTH, especially in its heyday, I do feel that the forum contributes to overuse and a loss-of-wildness, though not close to the scale of the Socials. The biggest impact may be on popularizing once seldom-visited places. (Popular being relative.) On this point, I am knowingly hypocritical, in that my favorite TRs have been those of seldom-visited locations, and some I have been inspired to visit myself.

To it's great credit, the AdkHighPeaks Forum recognized the impact that it was having and changed some of its policies, removed content, and created the HighPeaksFoundation, which gave away tens of thousands of dollars in conservation support and led to the rehabilitation and maintenance of the Mt. Adams Fire Tower.

Interesting. I see the same behavior you pointed out on here daily. There are signatures showing their accomplishes. Their posters lamenting the loss of the good old days, or telling of their experiences. Posters stating where others went wrong and how they do it right. Frankly, other than the animosity that prevails on most social media platforms, I don't see the difference.

Not blaming anyone or stating what we post or don't post is right or wrong. I just think VFFT fits into the exact same category.