Posting 'secret' spots online

[Tuco]

"On elitism: Several posts on this thread have the familiar structure of: "this is a fragile area, so it's OK for me to go there, but if the other guy goes there it that might cause damage," and "even though the wilderness is owned by everyone, the spot I just discovered is MY SPOT, and I'll be unhappy if I get there and the other guy got there first." Look carefully at motivations."[/B]

There is a big difference in someone wanting to learn about one of these places and a person finding them and not wanting them spoiled.

As long as not spoiling it means not going back yourself or telling your friends. Once you set foot on the place don't you start to "spoil" it yourself? IMO, either you tell nobody and don't go back or you can share and all enjoy using proper backwoods ethics. Otherwise its a little contradictive to say me and my friends can spoil the area but nobody else. IMO

 

[NewHampshire]

I'm going to take the opposite opinion of most of you so far. If somebody comes across something interesting, beautiful, or "special", then why keep that to yourself? My opinion is that life is too short to keep something beautiful to yourself. So few people get off the beaten track anyway, that posting something here is not likely to noticibly change the traffic of a particular spot save for all but the most adventurous of us.

I thought one of the best things about this website was that people were helpful and willing to share information. I do find it elitist, and frankly, obnoxious, to suggest we impose a policy limiting our "freedom of speech" here in a community of people that, for the most part, love and respect the outdoors. I would freely exchange hiking information with anyone here, whether in a forum or via PM.

In terms of bushwhacking beta in the trail conditions section: if you don't like it, don't read it!

In terms of secret spots and search engines: people can't find something if they don't know what it's called. How many people out there will randomly stumble upon "Magalloway Falls" or some other obscure term for a "special place" that someone here made up? And if someone does do a search, ends up here, and learns something valuable to them in the process, then great!

As always, I'm happy to agree to disagree, so long as you do so respectfully.

I am in wholesale agreement. Lets face it, too. Some places are just so far out there it is outside the realm of the average hiker. A good example is East Hale. Fairly recent trip reports here have given me the desire to visit it (yes I understand it is on a list, so thus not THAT big a secret....but still...) Since it is a bushwack, I doubt very many folks outside of "listers" (or me, just wanting to visit it simply for the views) will find the time to make it out there. So whats the big deal? I could see if someone wanted to protect something of historic value. An example was a rumored train wreck in the Pemi. Had I stumbled upon this I would have kept it secret simply for fear people might seek it out to rob it of trinkets and souvenieers. But a view is not mine. Its the mountains. Why not share?

Brian

P.S. Ok, one more exception.....if the suggested spot puts fragile alpine vegitation in potential danger from moderate to heavy use, then ok...keep it a secret.

 

[trailbiscuit]

This is a very interesting thread with a lot of good ideas. In fact, I would like to quote pieces from a bunch of youz guyz, but I'm kinda lazy.

Anyway, I don't see any problem with having information about various routes and places and whatnot posted here or somewhere else. Like it or not, that's what Internet is for: sharing of information. And, personally, I think that's a great thing. Times change. When sporting events were first broadcast on TV, there was great debate about instant replay. Opponents worried that it would take away from the mystery of the game, and people would cease to be interested. Last time I checked, the NFL was still kinda popular.

I do agree that people tend to forget that what they post can be seen by an infinite amount of people for an infinite amount of time. The anonymity provided by the Internet has fostered that. I mean, I'm posting this under the name "trailbiscuit"...I'm pretty sure "trailbiscuit" doesn't exist. This can and has led to problems in a number of places.

I also feel that, as others have stated, it is elitist to claim you found a special place and only those you deem worthy can visit it. I also find that sad. I like to share. I'm a bit of a hippy that way.

All that being said, the "secret place" I believe we are focusing on here most often refers to someplace you can only reach by bushwacking. Personally, I don't get bushwacking. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't try to walk through doors at home, around the office, etc.; I open them. Why do I want to hike somewhere where there's all that stuff in my way. Not my cup o' joe. But, I love reading reports of people who have bushwacked to these far flung, interesting places with registers that haven't been signed for years. That's really cool. More power to you. I just don't want to go there. And this is how I feel about publishing "secret" places: it's hard enough for most people to get off the couch, so they won't "threaten" these places. (Now, who's sounding elitist?) Again, I read the wacking TRs all the time, but I'm not planning on going there. And I don't think posting about a place would cause it to be overrun precisely because it is so hard to get to.

Not to stray from the core of the thread, but thumbs up the Moderation Task Force. This thread is a great example of how well run VftT is run. On many other boards this thread would be fraught with "yo momma" jokes. So, with that in mind, let's keep sharing.

 

[giggy]

So really, you don't need to worry about whether someone is going to find your secret spot searching with Google. You need to worry about me who now has your secret spot on top of the "New Posts" page.

It's always helpful to put a human face on problems, so I volunteer mine (virtually)....

I see what you mean - but I think that VFTT is basically a good rep of the entire community - day hikers, whackers, backpackers, car campers, climbers. etc- I think that most here not would go find that secret spot unless thats what they are into becuase we all have our own agendas.

If someone posts a a great sight, BW, or Bc camp somewhere, there many be some traffic, but I can't see 100's rushing to it. If it was that great and esily accessible to the masses, there would be heavy traffic already.

I am for free speech and free info - so I say post away.

I am pissed when sites are taken before me - but hey thats feckin life.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I'm also well aware that in this computer era, anything "shared" or "published" (you pick the word) on the web is from that point onward public...forever. I'm sure everyone reading this knows that.

If everyone reading thsi knows that, then the group of readers here is quite different statistically than the average Internet 'user'. In general, people do NOT realize the SCOPE of the net. In general, lurkers form 90% of the readership, while posters only 10%. Most people tend to think of a group as only the 10%. Most people are surprised to find someone referencing something they said 10-15 years earlier. Most people think only of the now.

Most people tend to think, "It can't be..." because they don't realize the scope of things. There have been numerous cases that I am aware of, where the net had a direct influence on the number of people accesing a remote site. For example, several years ago, I was working with a ranger in the Adirondacks. He mentioned that in the past two weeks, he saw more people going to the XXXXXXX slide than he had in the past two years. It's location and specific directions had just been published on the net.

Beleive it or not, reports DO have an effect on traffic to the area.

 

[Peakbagr]

Pete knows of what he speaks. He's run the 46er listserv for maybe the last 12-15 years. Besides being the 46er Trailmaster, he's one of the go-to guys for things Adirondack.

 

[albee]

Pete knows of what he speaks. He's run the 46er listserv for maybe the last 12-15 years. Besides being the 46er Trailmaster, he's one of the go-to guys for things Adirondack.

Thanks for clearing that up - and all this time I thought Pete was a cat that liked Cognac.

 

[forestgnome]

It is not elitist to withhold the location of a special place. Not telling the world about a special place does not mean I think others should not be allowed to go there, I just prefer to leave it the way I found it, unmarked and unpublished. I found it because I was exploring the area. Others are free to do the same.

Call me elitist, but I will never post locations of the many moose yards I have found, not even as a pm. If too many people go there, they might make new yards elsewhere. To find a moose yard takes miles and hours of bushwacking, which I have enjoyed. Few people would do this. Fewer would even recognize the yard if they walked right through it. The vast majority of antlers that I find are in or near the yards. But if I publish a location, then all the poeple who want to find shed antlers can get there quite easily. A nice rack can fetch big $$. Invariably, when I show someone a photograph of a shed antler, they ask where I found it. These people will not do what I did to find the yard, but they would go if they had specific directions.

Same goes for bear dens, rare plants, etc. Just because I withhold a location does not mean that I think only I should be allowed. That makes no sense. You are free to find it as I did.

Happy Trails

 

[Dugan]

It is not elitist to withhold the location of a special place. Not telling the world about a special place does not mean I think others should not be allowed to go there, I just prefer to leave it the way I found it, unmarked and unpublished. I found it because I was exploring the area. Others are free to do the same.

Just because I withhold a location does not mean that I think only I should be allowed. That makes no sense. You are free to find it as I did.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Not publishing is the route of lesser traffic and the damage that goes along with it. It doesn't hurt anyone to not know of a place they didn't know of before.

Who knows, perhaps others will succumb to the siren call of exploration to find their own hidden gems.

 

[forestgnome]

Also, I vote for self-moderating and having a general idea to not publish locations of special places, and if the mods see fit they should delete posts with locations of fragile species or where private landowners have requested hikers to stay on trail, etc., as mentioned by Dave Metsky. Free speech rights are misunderstood. The First Amendment forbids the US Government from silencing political dissent. It has nothing to do with private entities, such as VFTT. Get your own website, where you can publish GPS cooridinates of every waterfall if you see fit.

Happy Trails

 

[Peakbagr]

While I agree stongly with the no-publish comments, it was great to read the back and forth ideas of both sides. Thanks,everyone.
I wish I could have better expressed my thoughts on this, but members Forestgnome, Dugan, Pete_Hickey, and a few others did it for(and better) me.
My hope is that people will use restraint when inviting the world to read about a place you came across that is special.

Peakbagr

 

[the starchild]

"

"On elitism: Several posts on this thread have the familiar structure of: "this is a fragile area, so it's OK for me to go there, but if the other guy goes there it that might cause damage," and "even though the wilderness is owned by everyone, the spot I just discovered is MY SPOT, and I'll be unhappy if I get there and the other guy got there first." Look carefully at motivations."
QUOTE]

i am not sure who wrote the above, but i think its a little off from what people with that view really think, or atleast how i think. i have not posted trip reports or beta about a few places i have been because it would make the areas overused. i don't believe that i have the right to go there and noone else, but i sure as hell know as soon as someone posts too much beta and makes it easier to get there, the area will be more used. it is indeed there for everyone, no question about that. that seems like good 'ol common sense to me.
if i find a beautiful, much less traveled place with lots of hard work, why would i make it easy for anyone to go there and trash the place like MANY other places with overuse and misuse?

i think the people who yell, "elitist!" are just afraid of some hard work and bitter about people not telling them everyhting they want to know!

 

[TCD]

I posted the quote originally. I was responding to things I had read in this thread. I generalized the wording. But I want you to know that I was not trying to put words in other peoples mouths. From this thread:

"Most of us know about these spots, but posting an event like this can lead to high impact and overuse of these fragile areas."

"The absolute worst thing is to get to a site in the pouring rain after midnight and see someone in "YOUR" spot."

I may have misinterpreted the original posters intent. Sorry, if I did. There are definitely several points of view on this.

(FYI, overall, I travel off-trail considerably more than on-trail, and I prefer off-trail travel.)

 

[giggy]

Its all subjective -

what you think should be kept a secret, I might think should be able to viewed/shared by all.

To even suggest that I need to think twice about posting about a campsite (or whatever) I might find and want to share with others so it might make their trip a bit more enjoyable, it - well - thats not my style.

whatever - its just opinions - but - are we going to penalized now in one way or another for "sharing secrets" if we choose to? This is a serious question.

 

[Bob]

to clarify

Sorry you don't approve, but that's just the kind of info I appreciate about an unfamiliar area.

I just don't approve of a huge public announcement of these areas. If someone is looking for info I always pm them with any info I can share.

 

[jmegillon149]

"secret places" vs. "routes to get there" are two different things

secondly, posting an easy route eventually makes for LESS impact. When people regularly take the same route, herd paths are formed. Once the herd path is there, its essentially a trail, which leads to localized points of impact, and thus lessons potential damage.

This month's backpacker actually features maps of "lost" trails.

 

[Peakbagr]

"whatever - its just opinions - but - are we going to penalized now in one way or another for "sharing secrets" if we choose to? This is a serious question."

I started the thread. I clearly stated my concerns and why. We got a dialogue going - great.
Who said anything about 'rules' or penalties? The discussion accomplished what I wanted it to. Threw some light on a longstanding concern of mine and that members might give thought about the consequences of too-specific directions.

 

[cushetunk]

Its all subjective -

what you think should be kept a secret, I might think should be able to viewed/shared by all.

To what end? I mean, we agree (I think) that we probably don't want to put a road there. That WOULD help share it, after all. Maybe we could agree that we don't want a trail there. That would help share it, too. Especially if it was well-blazed and clearly signed. We could have helicopters fly people in, and that would help share the spot, too.

I think the question "what exactly are we sharing?" is a good one to keep asking. Is it just the place? Is it just one more waterfall, that is really so much better than all those other waterfalls that are along trails or roads? So much better that I've just got to get back and tell everyone "go see it"?

Or, perhaps what I'm trying to share the sense of adventure, of exploration, that experience of being out in the wild. If that's what I want to share, I can't share it by giving someone a tracklog, or telling them where every waterfall is. They've got to go out and do it for themselves. I can bring people along, I can inspire them to explore, but I can't box it up in a place name.

The best trip reports I have ever seen on the internet have never made me want repeat the exact trip I just read about. Instead, I've wanted to go on my own trips that capture the same spirit of fun, and friends, and adventure.

We do a great disservice when we share only the places, and not the passion for adventure that first brought us to those places.

 

[Papa Bear]

The Unnamed Lake
- Frederick George Scott (1861-1944)

It sleeps among the thousand hills
Where no man ever trod,
And only nature's music fills
The silences of God.

Great mountains tower above its shore,
Green rushes fringe its brim,
And o're its breast for evermore
The wanton breezes skim.

Dark clouds that intercept the sun
Go there in Spring to weep,
And there, when Autumn days are done,
White mists lie down to sleep.

Sunrise and sunset crown with gold
The peaks of ageless stone,
Where winds have thundered from of old
And storms have set their throne.

No echoes of the world afar
Disturb it night or day,
The sun and shadow, moon and star
Pass and repass for aye.

'Twas in the grey of early dawn,
When first the lake we spied,
And fragments of a cloud were drawn
Half down the mountain side.

Along the shore a heron flew,
And from a speck on high,
That hovered in the deepening blue,
We heard the fish-hawk's cry.

Among the cloud-capt solitudes,
No sound the silence broke,
Save when, in whispers down the woods,
The guardian mountains spoke.

Through tangled brush and dewy brake,
Returning whence we came,
We passed in silence, and the lake
We left without a name.

 

[MichaelJ]

Who said anything about 'rules' or penalties?

Your initial post started with references to talking to the other mods, and the statement that "Over on ADKHPs, board policy says no publishing of track logs to bushwhacks and fragile places. I'm in 100% agreement."

I think a number of people read that with the rest of the discussion and believed there was a proposal to have board policy here changed, and not just for track logs, as opposed to just a discussion (and one which was quite educational, too).