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Yan

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If I take a few coworkers on a day hike in the Adirondacks with me acting as an organizer of the trip, does that mean I take responsibility if someone gets injured or worse? I obviously don't charge anyone and did explicitely state to them the potential dangers of winter hiking.

Thanks.
 
Yan said:
If I take a few coworkers on a day hike in the Adirondacks with me acting as an organizer of the trip, does that mean I take responsibility if someone gets injured or worse? I obviously don't charge anyone and did explicitely state to them the potential dangers of winter hiking.

Thanks.
Legal advise received online is worth every penny you spend for it. ;)

While you will probably get some knowledgable replies here, if you are serious about this question I'd contact a lawyer who practices in your juristiction and ask the question there.

As a side comment, being legally in the right may not protect you from a potentially expensive lawsuit. Anyone can sue anyone, whether they win or not is another matter.

-dave-
 
David Metsky said:
Legal advise received online is worth every penny you spend for it. ;)

While you will probably get some knowledgable replies here, if you are serious about this question I'd contact a lawyer who practices in your juristiction and ask the question there.

As a side comment, being legally in the right may not protect you from a potentially expensive lawsuit. Anyone can sue anyone, whether they win or not is another matter.

-dave-
and with that, if you feels these co-workers would pull something like that then i probably wouldn't take them...

BUT if you have the most experience of hiking within the group, then you would already be the person in charge...
 
Sad day

While I understand Yan's concern, it's sad that he even has to think about this as an issue. Just further evidence of the erosion of self-responsibility in our society... If you're doing it as a business there are different considerations, but I'd really like to believe that you could organize a trip for friends and acquaintances without legal liability. Next thing you know we'll be signing waivers when we go to the neighbors house for dinner...
 
See disclaimer*

Yan, it sounds like your question raises liability issues arising under negligence principles. To be liable for negligence under New York law, the defendant (you) must owe the plaintiff (hiking partner) a duty of care, the defendant must breach that duty, and the plaintiff must have suffered injury as a result of the breach.

I think what you’re asking concerns the first element - the existence of a duty.

In determining the scope of a defendant’s duty in a particular case, courts have traditionally looked at factors such as (1) whether the relationship of the parties is such as to give rise to a duty of care, (2) whether the plaintiff was within the zone of foreseeable harm, and (3) whether the accident was within the reasonably foreseeable risks. These factors take into consideration things such as a plaintiff’s assumption of the risk (which you allude to above), open and obvious dangers, liability waivers, etc.

After reading this, I'm sure you can recognize that there is no black and white answer, rather, it is a fact-specific inquiry.


* DISCLAIMER. This material has been prepared by Willie, for informational purposes only and is not legal advice. Willie is licenced to practice law in Illinois only. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute, a lawyer-client relationship. Internet subscribers and online readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel. Neither receipt of information presented on this site nor any e-mail or other electronic communication sent to Willie through this site will create an attorney-client relationship, and any such e-mail or communication will not be treated as confidential. Willie expressly disclaims all liability in respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of these comments.
 
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There was a discussion a while back called "waiver forms for organized hikes" which is related to this situation.

Dick
 
Ahhhh, I was learning so much from willie's post until I read the fine print disclaimer. Now I don't know whether I can believe willie or sue willie.

We should all be doctors, they get to bury their mistakes ... which gives me an idea.

Seriously, thanks willie. :)
 
I agree with ADackR, I think I would be reluctant to take folks I think would pull such a stunt, unless this was like a mass group AMC or something like that where you are really just opening a hike by the public. With coworkers, at least you, the leader, would at least have some idea of the condition of them.

It's too bad in the US, we can't countersue people on the grounds of sheer stupidity. :p

Jay
 
Jay H said:
I agree with ADackR, I think I would be reluctant to take folks I think would pull such a stunt
Unfortunately, if someone were to die you could be sued by their family. You can't completely limit your risk by screening your participants and whether you think they are the type who would sue. Even then, with a serious injury with high medical bills, their insurance company could possibly go after you.

Again, if you are concerned about this it would pay to spend a little time with a lawyer who practices in your juristiction.

-dave-
 
Want to keep myself from getting into another long discussion about liability insurance.
From my experience, a renter's or homeowners policy would provide coverage on virtually any claim brought under circumstances described so far.
Co-workers or friends in a non-organized outing is the situation most of us hike under. First, there has to be some sort of duty owed or liability. Then, an attorney has to want to take up a claim in a case where there is little liability. If both of these unlikely eventualities were to coincide, your own liability policy takes it from there.

There is a good liklihood that the beginning of the last thread on this subject was a troll. Sure hope thats not the case here.
 
Liability

Thanks Peakbgr

the reason i asked my question in the first place is that one my coworkers asked me if they have to sign a waiver. i asked what kind of waiver are you talking about? she said - you organize the trip, so you take the responsibility if something happenes. it seemed rather silly to me because i am not a tour organizer who does it for money, provides gear, transportation, and as such may be considered partially responsible if someone falls and breaks his neck. i merely offer my friends to join me on this trip, explicitely warning them that there is a likelyhood of an injury while hiking, especially in the winter.
 
Personally, if your very worried about this I would not take them on the hike. The last thing you need to be worried about while climbing a snowy and icy trail, in cold weather, probably wearing crampons is being sued by coworkers.

If your not going to have fun, then don't go. It is a shame that you even have to :mad: think about this.

Thinking about this further, and based on the womans comments, I would cancel this trip, and definitely never do anything with that person!! :eek:

She is looking to sue someone.........let it be someone else. I'd rather you post your trip on VFTT, I'm sure someone will come along....and not sue you!
 
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Sorry about the length of this. You could re-work it for your needs and get your colleagues to sign it.
A warning, apparently posted at the Nelson Rocks Preserve, W. Va. (and is on their web site):

WARNING!! ALL GUESTS OF NELSON ROCKS PRESERVE MUST READ THIS!

Nature is unpredictable and unsafe. Mountains are dangerous. Many books have been written about these dangers, and there's no way we can list them all here. Read the books. Nelson Rocks Preserve is covered in steep terrain with loose, slippery and unstable footing. The weather can make matters worse. Sheer drops are everywhere. You may fall, be injured or die. There are hidden holes. You could break your leg. There are wild animals, which may be vicious, poisonous or carriers of dread diseases. These include poisonous snakes and insects. Plants can be poisonous as well. We don't do anything to protect you from any of this. We do not inspect, supervise or maintain the grounds, rocks, cliffs or other features, natural or otherwise. Real dangers are present even on trails. Trails are not sidewalks. They can be, and are, steep, slippery and dangerous. Trail features made or enhanced by humans, such as steps, walls and railings (if any) can break, collapse, or otherwise fail catastrophically at any time. We don't promise to inspect, supervise or maintain them in any way. They may be negligently constructed or repaired. They are unsafe, period. Live with it or stay away. Stay on the trails whenever possible. The terrain, in addition to being dangerous, is surprisingly complex. You may get lost. Carry food, water and first aid supplies at all times. Rocks and other objects can fall from the cliffs. They can tumble down slopes. This can happen naturally, or be caused by people above you, such as climbers. Rocks of all sizes, including huge boulders, can shift, move or fall with no warning. Use of helmets is advised for anyone approaching the rock formations. They can be purchased or rented at Seneca Rocks. They won't save you if you get hit by something big or on another part of your body. A whole rock formation might collapse on you and squash you like a bug. Don't think it can't happen. Weather can be dangerous, regardless of the forecast. Be prepared with extra clothing, including rain gear. Hypothermia, heat stroke, lightning, ice and snow, etc. can kill you. Rain can turn easy terrain into a deathtrap. If you scramble in high places (scrambling is moving over terrain steep enough to use your hands) without proper experience, training and equipment, or allow children to do so, you are making a terrible mistake. Even if you know what you're doing, lots of things can go wrong and you may be injured or die. It happens all the time. The Preserve does not provide rangers or security personnel. The other people in the preserve, including other visitors, our employees, agents, and guests, and anyone else who might sneak in, may be stupid, reckless, or otherwise dangerous. They may be mentally ill, criminally insane, drunk, using illegal drugs and/or armed with deadly weapons and ready to use them. We aren't necessarily going to do anything about it. We refuse to take responsibility. If you climb, you may die or be seriously injured. This is true whether you are experienced or not, trained or not, equipped or not, though training and equipment may help. It's a fact, climbing is extremely dangerous. If you don't like it, stay at home. You really shouldn't be doing it anyway. We do not provide supervision or instruction. We are not responsible for, and do not inspect or maintain, climbing anchors (including bolts, pitons, slings, trees, etc.) As far as we know, any of them can and will fail and send you plunging to your death. There are countless tons of loose rock ready to be dislodged and fall on you or someone else. There are any number of extremely and unusually dangerous conditions existing on and around the rocks, and elsewhere on the property. We may or may not know about any specific hazard, but even if we do, don't expect us to try to warn you. You're on your own. Rescue services are not provided by the Preserve, and may not be available quickly or at all. Local rescue squads may not be equipped for or trained in mountain rescue. If you are lucky enough to have somebody try to rescue you or treat your injuries, they may be incompetent or worse. This includes doctors and hospitals. We assume no responsibility. Also, if you decide to participate in a rescue of some other unfortunate, that's your choice. Don't do it unless you are willing to assume all risks. By entering the Preserve, you are agreeing that we owe you no duty of care or any other duty. We promise you nothing. We do not and will not even try to keep the premises safe for any purpose. The premises are not safe for any purpose. This is no joke. We won't even try to warn you about any dangerous or hazardous condition, whether we know about it or not. If we do decide to warn you about something, that doesn't mean we will try to warn you about anything else. If we do make an effort to fix an unsafe condition, we may not try to correct any others, and we may make matters worse! We and our employees or agents may do things that are unwise and dangerous. Sorry, we're not responsible. We may give you bad advice. Don't listen to us. In short, ENTER AND USE THE PRESERVE AT YOUR OWN RISK. And have fun! NRP Management
 
Not wanting to get involved in legal discussions but this is a very disconcerting issue.

she said - you organize the trip, so you take the responsibility if something happenes

For me, this statement would be enough to leave this woman at home, and possibly even cancel the trip for the whole crew. Not knowing that person, I dare say that she will be looking to sue your butt off if she scrapes her arm on a friggin' twig. What a damn shame that this is the world in which we live.
 
For kicks, I thought I’d do a quick search for New York case law regarding lawsuits brought by “hikers.” It appears that courts in New York are reluctant to find liability, at least as to property owners, where hikers are injured while hiking. Two recent cases are summarized below.

In Bouchard v. Smiley Brothers, Inc., 685 N.Y.S.2d 289 (1999), an experienced hiker fell to her death while hiking on a trail in the Mohonk Mountain Preserve. The administrator of her estate sued the owner of the preserve for wrongful death. The Court stated that it is well settled that “by engaging in a sporting event or recreational activity, a participant consents to those commonly appreciated risks which are inherent in and arise out of the nature of the sport generally and flow from such participation.” Applying this rule, the Court concluded that, since the fatality did not involve any latent or unreasonably enhanced danger, the hiker assumed the risks inherent in recreational hiking, including the risk of injury arising from the open and obvious physical features of the trail where the accident took place. The Court dismissed the case.

Similarly, in Cometti v. Hunter Mountain Festivals Ltd., 660 N.Y.S.2d 511 (1997), a spectator at a mountain bike race held during the summer at a ski resort, rode a chair lift to the summit of a mountain and was injured while hiking down an advanced ski trail to find a place to watch the race. The spectator sued the ski resort in negligence. The Court held that the mountain trail on which the spectator voluntarily traversed was “a natural geographical phenomenon, the danger of which was open and obvious rather than latent, and, therefore, the ski resort owed no duty of care to the spectator. The Court dismissed the case.
 
In my opinion if you are injured while hiking, it is your personal self, who would be responsible for the Medical Bills, etc. The Peaks didn't invite you, you invited yourself. "Hike at your own Risk."
 
I agree with Fred. A coworker asks about a waiver, they're already leaning the wrong way. Leave her home and let someone else worry about who she'll sue if she falls off the couch while reaching for some chips.
 
Yan said:
she said - you organize the trip, so you take the responsibility if something happenes.

While I understand the worry over becoming victim to a legal fiasco as the result of a hike gone wrong, many of the reactions to this woman's inquiry are accusational and I'm uncomfortable jumping the gun assuming everyone out there is ready levy a lawsuit. Innocent until proven otherwise, ect.

That said, in your place I would be concerned about the concept that you are responsible. To me a core part of the mind set needed for safe wilderness travel is a sense of self responsibility and a striving to be self sufficient. I would decline to travel with someone who does not get that idea. This not a legal thing, it's philosophical: if the crap falls it may be absolutely critical for an individual to rely on themselves alone and take responsibility for themselves. If a person can't do that I have to wonder if I can count on them to have a sense of responsibility to the partners they are traveling with and the environment they are traveling through.

This is one of the main reasons I enjoy traveling alone so much, even in winter. During those times I take responsibility for myself and my actions in a very basic way.
 
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