Redlining racist?

[ChrisB]

I have been trying to think of another word that has multiple meanings, one of which has either a racist intent or history but whose common usage is benign. I have come up with sundown as in Sundown Towns or Sundown Laws. For those unfamiliar with the practice, many southern towns once displayed signs warning Black people to leave town by sundown. The signs were often blunt, nasty, and patently racist. My dad, a New Englander, was shocked when he found these signs still prominent in 1940s Texas when he served in the Army Air Corps (later known as the Air Force) during WWII.

So in this context, the word sundown was tied to a disgusting racist practice. According to the logic being applied to the banning of the word redlining because of its association with discriminatory housing schemes, we could never use the word sundown again because in the past it was part and parcel of this horrible racial injustice. While I agree with someone who said that in general we should all take our cues from the offended party and alter our behavior so as not to offend, in this instance it doesn't seem practical or even necessary. If it was, we could never use the word sundown again.

Nice example, thanks.

I've noticed an almost knee-jerk reaction among the White majority when an issue like this is raised. It seems as if we feel threatened when confronted with a potentially racist practice, term or behavior.

I personally don't think the red-lining usage in hiking rises to the level of racism. BUT, I am not the one who can make that judgement.

A person of color noticed the usage of red-lining on a bumper sticker and mentioned it. If it is a trigger for them, then it's reasonable to discuss it in an empathetic and open way. No blame no shame.

 

[hikerbrian]

Having slept on this (good advice, btw), I land in the same space as Grey J and Puma concolor in the last two posts, as well as related thoughts upstream in this thread. This feels like another arbitrary litmus test (*Shock!!11!!1* 'You still use the word redlining?!! How COULD you?!!1!!!') that divides us unnecessarily into two camps. I say 'arbitrary' not because I don't understand the historical context of the word 'redlining' but because, as Grey J points out, there are a lot of additional terms that have similar potential energy; there are many other examples, and there's no good reason this one has risen to the forefront. I'll also add that I think these efforts are actively harmful. It would be one thing if there was nothing to be lost by simply finding a new term. But that is not the case. These battles are divisive and arbitrary, and as a result they actively turn many people away from the cause of equality. On top of that, a 'victory' - adapting a new term - will have negligible impact on getting a diverse population of people into the woods. In short, this is a hard battle over an arbitrary objective resulting in significant casualties, with little upside potential. We've seen this movie before.

 

[TEO]

Thank you ChrisB and B the Hiker for your thoughtful posts.

Most Americans, white Americans in particular—and I include myself—don't fully grasp the great evil of redlining. It is surely among the most shameful acts of government and the ruling white class since slavery, marginalizing and forcing the segregation and limiting the wealth potential for people of color for generations. This is an undeniable fact. Without substantial reparations, it may be that people of color never recover from the consequences of redlining.

Is the use of the word "red-lining" or "redlining" by White Mountain hikers racist? I don't think so. Is it unwise and insensitive? Probably. Consider this: What would we think if there was a summer camp devoted to the game "Concentration," and someone was wearing a t-shirt say, "Concentration Camp 2019"? Are the words "concentration camp" anti-Semitic? No. Would it be offensive to many to wear such a shirt? Absolutely. Now let's say a hiker has a bumper sticker that says "I'm not lost, I'm redlining" and happens to live or work or pass through a Boston neighborhood, where the population is largely people of color and poverty is high. This neighborhood was created by redlining. Is the presence of that bumpersticker offensive? Absolutely.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Now let's say a hiker has a bumper sticker that says "I'm not lost, I'm redlining" and happens to live or work or pass through a Boston neighborhood, where the population is largely people of color and poverty is high. This neighborhood was created by redlining. Is the presence of that bumpersticker offensive? Absolutely.

I don't see anyone in those neighborhoods upset by the train stations that display the term.

 

[TEO]

I don't see anyone in those neighborhoods upset by the train stations that display the term.

"Red Line" is not the same as "redlining" and a quick glance at a T map explains the name.

 

[SpencerVT]

Anyone have any thoughts on my "Death March" comment from above - about how that terms carries extreme horribleness in its history but is used to describe an extremely long climb/hike?

This conversation is like talking about abortion. It's not solvable to where a consensus is ever going to be achieved. This is why I love hiking in the woods and mountains in the first place - away from society, the noise, politics, social media, strip mall box stores and basically all the **** that sucks in modern life. Nature rules.

 

[JoshandBaron]

"Red Line" is not the same as "redlining" and a quick glance at a T map explains the name.

A quick glance at a map explains the name? Huh.

 

[jfb]

I wonder if some of my neighbors are upset because I drive a German car? Maybe I should drive a Japanese or Italian car instead?

 

[TEO]

Anyone have any thoughts on my "Death March" comment from above - about how that terms carries extreme horribleness in its history but is used to describe an extremely long climb/hike?

This conversation is like talking about abortion. It's not solvable to where a consensus is ever going to be achieved. This is why I love hiking in the woods and mountains in the first place - away from society, the noise, politics, social media, strip mall box stores and basically all the **** that sucks in modern life. Nature rules.

I've always used "slog" and "sufferfest,", so I've not thought about the term "Death March." You raise a good point. To your earlier point about intent being important, I largely disagree. Just because we may say something out of ignorance, does not prevent our words from being hurtful. For example if you use tropes that were used by Nazi's to justify the Holocaust, even if you are unaware of the historical background, it does not make the use of those tropes OK or less offensive. Maybe you grew up in Atlanta and as a kid did the "Tomahawk Chop," thinking it was just a way to cheer on your favorite sports team. Is it any less offensive? No.

I'm not going to delve into abortion, but while you may be right that we will never reach a consensus on race in our country, if you believe that all people are created equal and deserve "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," then it is the moral imperative of each of us to work to end racism. It is this country's original sin, and it is the root of many of this country's most serious and most difficult problems and iniquities. That said the work is difficult, requires education, self-reflection, and awareness. It can be at times uncomfortable. In order to do that work we need to recognize that while everyone of us has biases and prejudices, that does not make us bad people.

 

[TEO]

A quick glance at a map explains the name? Huh.

I think you missed the "T," as in, a quick glance at an MBTA map explains the context of the name of the subway line.

I wonder if some of my neighbors are upset because I drive a German car? Maybe I should drive a Japanese or Italian car instead?

During World War II some likely would have been upset.

 

[jfb]

During World War II some likely would have been upset.

Some might still be upset. How can I tell? And if some are, am I expected to go out and buy a Ford?

What if I'm standing in the checkout line at a supermarket in front of a vegetarian? Should I return my meat so they don't get upset?

My point is that I'm not willing to spend a lot of effort trying to avoid accidentally upsetting anybody.

 

[TEO]

Some might still be upset. How can I tell? And if some are, am I expected to go out and buy a Ford?

What if I'm standing in the checkout line at a supermarket in front of a vegetarian? Should I return my meat so they don't get upset?

Comparing vegetarianism to the subjugation of people of color for over four hundred years, and which continues today, is disingenuous and unproductive.

I would encourage you to read about, listen to, or watch the story of redlining in the U.S. today and it's continuing impact. I also encourage you read about, listen, and watch people of color tell about what it is like to live as a person of color in this country. Assuming you are white like me, our experience is not theirs.

 

[Mike P.]

Some might still be upset. How can I tell? And if some are, am I expected to go out and buy a Ford?

What if I'm standing in the checkout line at a supermarket in front of a vegetarian? Should I return my meat so they don't get upset?

My point is that I'm not willing to spend a lot of effort trying to avoid accidentally upsetting anybody.

During times of war, we've had Freedom Fries and I suspect pickled cabbage had a different name. Maybe we had hot dogs but not that other name for them or Brats.

It's pretty likely your German or Japanese car was made in TN, GA or AL. On my own dumb @$$ Katahdin trip I remember pulling into Millinocket looking for breakfast and my first thought was we would all get along, me and the mill workers all driving trucks. My caffeine fueled brain was slow to notice I had the only imported truck. (1992) I drove straight to the gate to hang with the environmentalist and climb Katahdin.

A vegetarian eats what they like as a choice.

 

[jfb]

I would encourage you to read about, listen to, or watch the story of redlining in the U.S. today and it's continuing impact. I also encourage you read about, listen, and watch people of color tell about what it is like to live as a person of color in this country. Assuming you are white like me, our experience is not theirs.

You sure make it sound like the hiking community supports racial segregation by using a slang term in a different context. I don't think that's the case at all.

 

[maineguy]

Just pretend they are on a mountaintop.

 

[JoshandBaron]

I think you missed the "T," as in, a quick glance at an MBTA map explains the context of the name of the subway line.

Almost like looking at an AMC map would explain context.

 

[egilbe]

No one can help how other people feel. No one can make you feel anything you don't want to. You are responsible for your own feelings, either happiness, sadness, anger or frustration. I am responsible for my own feelings and reactions. I know its unreasonable to expect others to take responsibility for their own emotions and reactions, but that's where I stand on all this foolish virtue signaling and taking offense overimagined sights and insults.

If I can take responsibility for my own feelings, nothing anyone else says or does will offend me because I'm responsible for my own feelings.

 

[TEO]

Almost like looking at an AMC map would explain context.

Our term "red-lining" dates to the days when the hiking trails on the AMC maps were black dashes and people would use a red marker to highlight, and thus record, the trails they had hiked. This is not readily apparent by looking at a map or bumper sticker.

You sure make it sound like the hiking community supports racial segregation by using a slang term in a different context. I don't think that's the case at all.

Please re-read my initial post in this thread.

 

[TEO]

No one can help how other people feel. No one can make you feel anything you don't want to. You are responsible for your own feelings, either happiness, sadness, anger or frustration. I am responsible for my own feelings and reactions. I know its unreasonable to expect others to take responsibility for their own emotions and reactions, but that's where I stand on all this foolish virtue signaling and taking offense overimagined sights and insults.

If I can take responsibility for my own feelings, nothing anyone else says or does will offend me because I'm responsible for my own feelings.

This is almost surely the stupidest, most ignorant, and most selfish thing I have read on VFTT. Obviously your parents were too stupid to understand human procreation. Were they siblings?

 

[cragway]

Comparing vegetarianism to the subjugation of people of color for over four hundred years, and which continues today, is disingenuous and unproductive.

I would encourage you to read about, listen to, or watch the story of redlining in the U.S. today and it's continuing impact. I also encourage you read about, listen, and watch people of color tell about what it is like to live as a person of color in this country. Assuming you are white like me, our experience is not theirs.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't making light of the horrible acts the Government implemented on a race of people......just the fact
that there seems to be no end on how far this can go,to try to right an injustice......I think we made great strides in the last 50 odd years...is it perfect?......no....will it ever be?.......not sure that can be answered......do we need to tip the scale and provide "equity" to those that have been hurt from past injustices?....yes ....but one can also be weary that a "pandora's box" could be unintentionally opened and further divide an already fragile society..........."hatred" since the dawn of humanity,the destroyer of all that is good.