Redlining racist?

[bikehikeskifish]

How they react and possibly rationalize only reflects on them and not the facts.

This is true to a point. Presentation also counts. If your style is more in-your-face, or more confrontational, or more preachy, you're going to get more of the knee-jerk reaction. If your style is more inclusive ("we") or example-based, it is more thought-provoking and less knee-jerking.

If you asked a question, or made some point, and got an answer, or a response, and then reacted dismissively, reactions will tend towards knee-jerking. If you re-ask or re-make the point, you really can't expect anyone to play along, unless they are doing so for sport.

I base these observations on both my reactions and watching all your reactions, along with the (as you might imagine) personal messaging, and reporting of posts, that I and the other moderators are keeping tabs on. Rather than closing it when it gets close to going off the rails, I have resorted to the personal messages and having people edit their posts.

You may disagree with me and that's fine, but this is what I'm seeing and hearing from my seat.

Tim

 

[skiguy]

Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this. Racism is not just using the N-word or consciously believing that people who have different colored skin from you are inferior. We all have implicit biases and prejudices, including racial prejudices, even those with the best intentions. Racism is these biases combined with power. (This why people of color cannot be racist, by definition. They can and do have prejudices, but they do not have a position of power in our society.)

With all do respect you can have your own opinion. But I do not agree with this statement and actually find it to be offensive. I will not be pigeon-holed into this line of thinking. There are some of us that have been hiking for a long time and have used it as a conduit for recognizing, educating and improving the quality of life for others outside of one's particular race.

 

[cragway]

Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this. Racism is not just using the N-word or consciously believing that people who have different colored skin from you are inferior. We all have implicit biases and prejudices, including racial prejudices, even those with the best intentions. Racism is these biases combined with power. (This why people of color cannot be racist, by definition. They can and do have prejudices, but they do not have a position of power in our society.)

Surly that was said in jest......lame........I think most "intelligent" people on this board have a basic understanding of the definition of Racism,bigotry. ...........See a person as an individual not a race.

 

[TEO]

Surly that was said in jest......lame........I think most "intelligent" people on this board have a basic understanding of the definition of Racism,bigotry. ...........See a person as an individual not a race.

Nope, not in jest. I think that most of us who aren't familiar with the of the common, day-to-day experiences of people of color, have no idea what racism looks like. And, because the New England and upstate New York are overwhelmingly homogeneous, we rarely are confronted with our own prejudices.

 

[maineguy]

Nope, not in jest. I think that most of us who aren't familiar with the of the common, day-to-day experiences of people of color, have no idea what racism looks like. And, because the New England and upstate New York are overwhelmingly homogeneous, we rarely are confronted with our own prejudices.

Well, many people living in New England haven't always lived in New England. Myself, I have lived in metro NYC, metro LA, metro Chicago, metro San Diego. I also served in a fully integrated Navy as well as spent time at military bases in the South. Preaching to people you don't know about what they don't know about racism is unbelievably presumptuous.

 

[ChrisB]

I base these observations on both my reactions and watching all your reactions, along with the (as you might imagine) personal messaging, and reporting ...
Tim

I am genuinely sorry to put you and the other moderators through this Tim. These are difficult conversations to have on this board and as a nation. But also important and necessary. Thanks for your judgement and efforts.

Hey, Maybe what we need is a good old fashioned rescue to kibitz about!

 

[TEO]

Well, not everybody living in New England has always lived in New England. Myself, I have lived in metro NYC, metro LA, metro Chicago, metro San Diego. I also served in a fully integrated Navy.

True. My older brother is Black. Does that mean I'm free of bias and prejudice? That I'm not racist? Nope. If my parents and siblings can understand that and and not be offended, not see it as a person affront, then I think others can.

 

[Hachi]

Nope, not in jest. I think that most of us who aren't familiar with the of the common, day-to-day experiences of people of color, have no idea what racism looks like. And, because the New England and upstate New York are overwhelmingly homogeneous, we rarely are confronted with our own prejudices.

I may be looking at this too simplistically, but it seems to me that we are talking about two different things, racism seen as a personal act, and racism as an institution. Most of us have anecdotal experiences of personal acts, and don't believe we conscientiously act in a manner that could be considered racist. I think what TEO is talking about is the systematic racism that exists in education, criminal justice, housing, healthcare, etc.

I found this helpful in the light of this conversation.

https://www.nlc.org/article/2020/07/21/what-does-it-mean-to-be-an-anti-racist/

 

[skiguy]

True. My older brother is Black. Does that mean I'm free of bias and prejudice? That I'm not racist? Nope. If my parents and siblings can understand that and and not be offended, not see it as a person affront, then I think others ca

Your only trying to facilitate your own beliefs and agenda and expecting others to totally agree. Is that not a prejudice in itself? I’m not buying it. To make assumptions of others beliefs or expecting them to align them with yours while pontificating from behind a computer screen is just ignorant at best. Your personal paradigm is not applicable to me. Stop making assumptions about others that you don't know.

 

[TEO]

Your only trying to facilitate your own beliefs and agenda and expecting others to totally agree. Is that not a prejudice in itself? I’m not buying it. To make assumptions of others beliefs or expecting them to align them with yours while pontificating from behind a computer screen is just ignorant at best. Your personal paradigm is not applicable to me. Stop making assumptions about others that you don't know.

I would encourage you to take the tests here: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implici...touchtest.html. Try to answer the test questions as quickly as possible.

Keep in mind, to recognize our own prejudices is not saying that we are a bad people.

I found this helpful in the light of this conversation.

https://www.nlc.org/article/2020/07/21/what-does-it-mean-to-be-an-anti-racist/

That is an outstanding explanation. Thank you for sharing it!

P.s. Thank you, moderators, for keeping this important discussion open. I think I've said enough here. If anyone want's to continue the discussion with me, please feel free to PM me.

 

[Puma concolor]

Question:

Did you climb Denali or McKinley? Did you hike Baxter Peak or Kathadin?

Again I ask, What's the big deal with a name change if it addresses an historical wrong?

Our history is littered with the abuse of non-whites at the hands of the white majority. I believe we are now facing a reckoning as a nation. As part of that it's necessary to acknowledge that some of our heroes and forefathers were not as god-like as we've been taught.

So ironically/non-ironically, I spent my day today ski touring on the Mount Ascutney summit road ... a mountain whose names traces back to the Abenakis.

It SEEMS that based on my contributions to this thread thus far that you have placed me in a box which opposes historical recognition of mountain names. Because boxes make argument easier ... or something like that.

My profile shot atop Denali was obviously taken in June 2015 when the mountain was still officially known as “Mount McKinley” by the USGS. I was among the very last to summit the mountain by its old name with its old elevation. The banner I am holding was made up many months in advance and even caused confusion among family and friends when I told them I’d summited the highest point in North America ... Denali. No, some said, Mount McKinley is the top of North America. And then I’d explain.

Anyone who knows me closely knows “Dances with Wolves” is my favorite all-time movie and I own Costner’s follow-up documentary 500 Nations. So I’m not hostile towards or ignorant of history.

So why do I prefer Denali and Katahdin over McKinley and Baxter? It really has very little to do with being woke or politically correct. It’s more of a recognition of the true historical names of those two peaks. The PEOPLE who lived in their shadows for eons specifically created names that refer only to those peaks. Denail is artistic ... the Great One or the High One depending on your translation. That word refers to one and only one thing. There is no ambiguity. Same with Katahdin. McKinley, Baxter and REDLINING can refer to a whole pile of things and cause confusion about word meanings as seen in this thread.

Now where wokeness enters the world of state highpointing is in South Dakota. And I fully support the changing of the name of Harney Peak (William Harney was an Indian fighting scoundrel) to Black Elk Peak even though there’s really no historical basis for that name.

My overall point though is that if you look for racism behind every cairn, you’re going to find it. When EVERYTHING becomes racist, then nothing is racist. And that’s not someplace any of us want to be.

 

[rocket21]

Question:

Did you climb Denali or McKinley? Did you hike Baxter Peak or Kathadin?

Again I ask, What's the big deal with a name change if it addresses an historical wrong?

I think the murder of William McKinley was a pretty big 'historical wrong.'

Ironically some of the same folks in this cancel mob were against renaming Mt. Clay a few years ago, because he was 'The Great Compromiser.' One of his greatest compromises being the creation of the Fugitive Slave Law. But apparently, that's less offensive than a primary color and geometry as related to a hiking map.

 

[egilbe]

I prefer the indigenous people's names of the mountains. It gives the land character, that not I, nor my northern European ancestors, were the first to walk these hills and valleys.


death marches was also used by the Nazis when they were evacuating their Eastern slave camps before they fell to the Russians. They walked the survivors West in January and February until they dropped. Another instance of genocide and death marches

 

[ChrisB]

I may be looking at this too simplistically, but it seems to me that we are talking about two different things, racism seen as a personal act, and racism as an institution. Most of us have anecdotal experiences of personal acts, and don't believe we conscientiously act in a manner that could be considered racist. I think what TEO is talking about is the systematic racism that exists in education, criminal justice, housing, healthcare, etc.

I found this helpful in the light of this conversation.

https://www.nlc.org/article/2020/07/21/what-does-it-mean-to-be-an-anti-racist/

This is an important distinction Hachi makes here about institutional racism.

Race has played a subtle role for most of us starting with the neighborhoods we grew up in, the schools we attended, the health care we received, the jobs we had, the home and business loans we qualified for, where we now reside, and on and on. So let’s just acknowledge our good fortune and work to level the playing field for others.

As an old white guy I am not threatened by doing this nor do I feel disenfranchised. I’ve been increditably lucky. Time to share the good fortune.

 

[rocket21]

Interesting to see how history is changing before our very eyes...

March 6, 2021:

March 6, 2011:

 

[cragway]

Nope, not in jest. I think that most of us who aren't familiar with the of the common, day-to-day experiences of people of color, have no idea what racism looks like. And, because the New England and upstate New York are overwhelmingly homogeneous, we rarely are confronted with our own prejudices.

There you go again....pushing the narrative..Why do you feel the need to "categorize" people..seems odd with the topic at hand.If we are ever to get anywhere with race relations,a good starting point would be to look at people as individuals.....call me crazy.You cannot assume what's in people's heart.

.........homogeneous?......how presumptuous of you.....thank you

 

[skiguy]

There you go again....pushing the narrative..Why do you feel the need to "categorize" people..seems odd with the topic at hand.If we are ever to get anywhere with race relations,a good starting point would be to look at people as individuals.....call me crazy.You cannot assume what's in people's heart.

.........homogeneous?......how presumptuous of you.....thank you

Well said. I agree.

 

[skiguy]

I would encourage you to take the tests here: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implici...touchtest.html. Try to answer the test questions as quickly as possible.

Keep in mind, to recognize our own prejudices is not saying that we are a bad people.

Sorry I'm not creating an account with what just seems like another place to facilitate yet more liberal narcissism.

 

[Grey J]

This has been an interesting (if occasionally contentious) discussion especially considering the position that I've taken. Most of the time I would be on the other side. I would like to see each and every Confederate monument in the US removed from public space. I hope they change the name of Fort Bragg and the other forts named after traitors. I lobbied in favor of changing the names of the Washington and Kansas City football teams and the Cleveland and Atlanta baseball teams as far back as 20 years ago and I have been appalled by the Cleveland mascot since I was a boy.

I think Denali and Kathadian are far better names for their respective mountains and more appropriate names as well. I would not be opposed to renaming Washington as Agiocochook. But I just don't see the problem with this word. The red-lining that hikers do is not racist. The word itself happens to have multiple meanings. The offended parties appear to be intentionally ignoring the context. There's enough trouble and hard feelings in this world that we shouldn't go around looking to create more especially where none existed and none was intended. For the record, when I briefly followed this practice, I chose a green felt tip pen. It just felt right. Peace, out.

 

[jfb]

But I just don't see the problem with this word. The red-lining that hikers do is not racist. The word itself happens to have multiple meanings. The offended parties appear to be intentionally ignoring the context.

I don't understand how preventing hikers from using the term redlining will solve any of the problems that racism has caused.