Renowned rock climber dead

[DougPaul]

The idea behind this strategy is to only leave only one piece of gear in the rock for the last rappeller.

Yup. It's amazing how cheaply we valued our lives when using this technique!

Sometimes it's not that simple--one may not have enough gear to leave backups at each rapping point.

Doug

 

[ChrisB]

You have to consider that if a leader is 50 feet above a belay, places a piece of protection, decides he cannot do the next move and asks to be lowered, the load on that piece of gear is about twice the load on the rappel anchor mentioned previously. I guess that's why gym climbing is so popular.

Can someone explain the physics of this to me?

How can a static load weight on the fixed piece double as a result of the leader being lowered vs. lowering herself on rappel?

Help!!

 

[skiguy]

Can someone explain the physics of this to me?

How can a static load weight on the fixed piece double as a result of the leader being lowered vs. lowering herself on rappel?

Help!!

It’s due to the “Pulley Effect”. Read up here and report back with your findings. Hint: The second article under the heading “Bottom Roping” is where the basic answer lies. Or maybe you will get lucky and our esteemed Researh Analyst DougPaul will chime in and simplify it for all of us.

http://wallrat.com/PDF_Files/forcesinleadfalls.pdf

https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blog/required-strength-belay-anchors

 

[OldEric]

I'm going to agree with you. Let me get this straight. Please correct me if I am wrong or not seeing the whole picture. So if the primary anchor does pop a back up piece has been placed in the system but not loaded? If so must be a nice game of rock paper scissors going on to see whom goes first. I think I'll stick to equalized, non-extending and redundant anchors thankyou very much!

Good luck when for ~6 raps further down and you've got 6 more to go and you're out of gear. You've got a lovely string of textbook anchors above you though. Sometimes you need to know when good enough is good enough.

Another point - achieving no extension and perfectly equalized is pretty much impossible. You can dabble abound with dynamic equalization, pre equalization and limiter knots knots. A good exercise on the ground on a sunny afternoon but when you are a thousand feet up and the s#$% has hit the fan there are compromise choices to be made. Good enough is good enough.

Here are 2 examples that the people here will relate to:
1. The really elite FKT people - how many of the 10 essentials do you think they take? Yet we typically applaud their feats.
2. In climbing one of the most out there things currently being done is trying 8k meter peaks in winter. Typically done in a 3-5 day "push" - no fixed camps, ropes etc. The participants typically start out with less weight then your average "prudent" White Mountain winter day hiker.

Its fine to say "not for me" - I am going to be as safe as can be. Just realize the limitations that imposes.

 

[skiguy]

Good luck when for ~6 raps further down and you've got 6 more to go and you're out of gear. You've got a lovely string of textbook anchors above you though. Sometimes you need to know when good enough is good enough.

Another point - achieving no extension and perfectly equalized is pretty much impossible. You can dabble abound with dynamic equalization, pre equalization and limiter knots knots. A good exercise on the ground on a sunny afternoon but when you are a thousand feet up and the s#$% has hit the fan there are compromise choices to be made. Good enough is good enough.

Here are 2 examples that the people here will relate to:
1. The really elite FKT people - how many of the 10 essentials do you think they take? Yet we typically applaud their feats.
2. In climbing one of the most out there things currently being done is trying 8k meter peaks in winter. Typically done in a 3-5 day "push" - no fixed camps, ropes etc. The participants typically start out with less weight then your average "prudent" White Mountain winter day hiker.

Its fine to say "not for me" - I am going to be as safe as can be. Just realize the limitations that imposes.

Point well taken and I agree. Fortunately I won’t be doing any 12 pitch walls or 8000 meter peaks in the dead of a Winter any time too soon.

 

[TCD]

All this is a worthy and informative discussion for folks who are not familiar with technical mountaineering.

>To the point of not using up your gear: In their famous climb of Gasherbrum IV, Tim McCartney-Snape and Greg Child ran out of anchor hardware on the (20+ if I recall) raps from the top. They fixed the last couple raps by removing the leashes from their ice tools and jamming knotted leashes in cracks in the rock.

>To another point: Who knows what the conditions were the day of this accident, or how the climbers felt physically. There is an old saying "Speed is safety in the mountains." There are all kinds of objective dangers, and the longer you are out the more you are exposed to risk from these. There is a balance point (VERY difficult to learn) between being super careful at every step but getting killed by bad weather that moves in (for example) and taking some chances to go faster but getting down before the weather. Case by case, situational awareness and experience.

Dangerous games don't always end well.

 

[ChrisB]

It’s due to the “Pulley Effect”. Read up here and report back with your findings. Hint: The second article under the heading “Bottom Roping” is where the basic answer lies. Or maybe you will get lucky and our esteemed Researh Analyst DougPaul will chime in and simplify it for all of us.

http://wallrat.com/PDF_Files/forcesinleadfalls.pdf

https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blog/required-strength-belay-anchors

I ain’t buying it ski guy! The first artl you cite is really about leader falls. And the second vaguely refers to a “pulley effect “ without explaining how exactly that might work. Hooey I say!

If a 150 lb climber is being lowered by a belayer on the ground, I don’t see how the anchor above the climber can experience a load heavier than the climber if the descent is smooth and controlled.

Doug, what say you professor??

 

[jfb]

I ain’t buying it ski guy! The first artl you cite is really about leader falls. And the second vaguely refers to a “pulley effect “ without explaining how exactly that might work. Hooey I say!

If a 150 lb climber is being lowered by a belayer on the ground, I don’t see how the anchor above the climber can experience a load heavier than the climber if the descent is smooth and controlled.

Doug, what say you professor??

https://www.educatedclimber.com/mechanical-advantage-explained/

 

[DougPaul]

I ain’t buying it ski guy! The first artl you cite is really about leader falls. And the second vaguely refers to a “pulley effect “ without explaining how exactly that might work. Hooey I say!

If a 150 lb climber is being lowered by a belayer on the ground, I don’t see how the anchor above the climber can experience a load heavier than the climber if the descent is smooth and controlled.

Lowering a climber or catching a falling climber from a bottom belay have the same ratios of forces:

Both the belayer and the climber are pulling down on the top anchor so the sum of the forces is greater than the climber's weight (or impact force if catching a fall). In a frictionless system, the force on the top point will be twice the climber's weight/impact force. Typically the force on the top point is closer to about 1.5 times the weight/impact force due to friction between the rope and the top carabiner. Less if there is friction between the climber and the top point.

A technical climbing leader should know this.

Doug

 

[TCD]

Thanks, DougPaul. This is worthwhile information.

I would imagine that Gobright and Jacobsen did understand all this, as experienced climbers.

But folks asking about this have taken the discussion down a bit of a sidetrack, which is interesting, but not related to the accident. In the accident, the anchor did not fail. It appears Gobright rappelled off the end of his rope. There are numerous possible causes for this to have happened, and we will probably never know for sure.

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks, DougPaul. This is worthwhile information.

I would imagine that Gobright and Jacobsen did understand all this, as experienced climbers.

But folks asking about this have taken the discussion down a bit of a sidetrack, which is interesting, but not related to the accident. In the accident, the anchor did not fail. It appears Gobright rappelled off the end of his rope. There are numerous possible causes for this to have happened, and we will probably never know for sure.

I expect that they did understand this--estimating forces on the gear is an important part of leading. As is dealing with trade-offs from different sources of risk.

While the reports suggest that the cause of the accident was rapelling off the end of the rope, it may be worth noting that the double rappel does place the sum of both climbers weights on the anchor, possibly increasing the chance of anchor failure.

FWIW, rapelling is both easy and dangerous. I don't recall the exact statistics, but a large proportion of climbing deaths are rapelling accidents.

Doug

 

[ChrisB]

If a climber weighs X, then the belayer needs to counter that weight with X (minus friction). Both loads are pulling down on the anchor. If the belayer weighs significantly less than the climber, they will lift off the ground. The pulley effect is about the mechanical advantage you get over the fixed point.

Ah ha. After reading this nice summation and drawing myself a little force vector diagram I totally get it!

It really has nothing to do with the pulley effect which implies some mechanical advantage at work. This is more like a fulcrum with a bar weighted on each end.

Thanks all for the clarification. Off belay

 

[skiguy]

Ah ha. After reading this nice summation and drawing myself a little force vector diagram I totally get it!

It really has nothing to do with the pulley effect which implies some mechanical advantage at work. This is more like a fulcrum with a bar weighted on each end.

Thanks all for the clarification. Off belay

Now that we have that straight and not to be creating anymore “Hooey” . But could you possibly answer this for us? “What is the average air speed velocity of a laden swallow”?

 

[sierra]

I'm going to weigh in here and possibly muddy the waters. I used to be a technical climber, so I have some knowledge on potential reasons for an accident like this. If two climbers want to simul-rappel to a ledge and its going to be close rope length wise, it is critical you find the middle of the rope. If your off by 10 or 20 ft. and the guy on the short end goes faster, he could zip off the end of the rope and this would send his partner into fall mode. I bring this up for two reasons. I thought I heard somewhere someone suggesting they did not find the middle of the rope. Second reason, if one climber zips off the end, he is more likely to gain air speed and either miss the ledge or have enough force to bounce off it, the second climber would have a slower descent rate or may even have been closer to the ledge, thus not having enough force for him to fly by it or bounce off of it. The second climber we know landed on the ledge, which saved his life I believe.

 

[hikerbrian]

I haven't been on the sharp end in more than 5 years, so my head is firmly out of the game. But I'm reminded just how much one depends on their partner in that sport. A mistake by one can mean the death of the other. Jacobson is unbelievably lucky to be alive. I've rapped off others' anchors, I've belayed partners as they run it out over sketchy gear where a fall likely would have ended up impacting the belay anchor. And I've let myself be influenced by others' seeming expertise. I wonder if that factored into this accident? Jacobson deferring to Gobright in not finding the middle of the rope and not tying stopper knots. Someone more experienced/accomplished than you saying 'It's fine' can make you feel like you should just get on with it instead of taking another look.

 

[ChrisB]

.... Someone more experienced/accomplished than you saying 'It's fine' can make you feel like you should just get on with it instead of taking another look.

I guess the one remaining question I have was why a simul-rappel in the first place. It increased the risk factor and seemed to provide little advantage other saving a few minutes of time.

But again, these guys were experts at their craft. The lesson for us mere mortals is bad things can and do happen, even to the best of the best.

 

[DayTrip]

Now that we have that straight and not to be creating anymore “Hooey” . But could you possibly answer this for us? “What is the average air speed velocity of a laden swallow”?

English or African?

 

[DayTrip]

I haven't been on the sharp end in more than 5 years, so my head is firmly out of the game. But I'm reminded just how much one depends on their partner in that sport. A mistake by one can mean the death of the other. Jacobson is unbelievably lucky to be alive. I've rapped off others' anchors, I've belayed partners as they run it out over sketchy gear where a fall likely would have ended up impacting the belay anchor. And I've let myself be influenced by others' seeming expertise. I wonder if that factored into this accident? Jacobson deferring to Gobright in not finding the middle of the rope and not tying stopper knots. Someone more experienced/accomplished than you saying 'It's fine' can make you feel like you should just get on with it instead of taking another look.

I am currently reading a book on risk assessment relative to the outdoors and one of the author's quotes is that "the only thing that roping up together does is ensure that you don't die alone". I've never climbed like this but I certainly noticed the dependence on others for your own safety. Huge trust factor. Huge.

 

[sierra]

I am currently reading a book on risk assessment relative to the outdoors and one of the author's quotes is that "the only thing that roping up together does is ensure that you don't die alone". I've never climbed like this but I certainly noticed the dependence on others for your own safety. Huge trust factor. Huge.

Not sure who the author of that book is, but his statement is absolutely ridiculous and false on many levels. But, you're statement about trust is very accurate. I would only climb with my regular partners, I never tied in with anyone else, although I did occasionally climb with a guide, but they were well vetted. The one time that I would give any credence to your authors statement, is unprotected steep snow climbing. Some parties rope up and either use pickets or natural features occasionally, some run out long sections tied together with little or no protection. I would not climb in that style, too many variables and the risk assessment for that style is low. I do long snow climbs in CO, but I climb alone and carry two ice axes. If I'm going to fall, it will be on my own accord. But that style is not really that dangerous, it's fairly safe if you good at reading snow conditions and can predict that they will stay good for the duration of your climb. Also another key component to my style is avalanche assessment. I'm not the best in that regard, but I'm good enough to know within a safe margin. I have been in one avalanche, totally my fault. I knew it was bad and I got greedy. I'm very lucky to have survived it.

 

[DayTrip]

Not sure who the author of that book is, but his statement is absolutely ridiculous and false on many levels. But, you're statement about trust is very accurate. I would only climb with my regular partners, I never tied in with anyone else, although I did occasionally climb with a guide, but they were well vetted. The one time that I would give any credence to your authors statement, is unprotected steep snow climbing. Some parties rope up and either use pickets or natural features occasionally, some run out long sections tied together with little or no protection. I would not climb in that style, too many variables and the risk assessment for that style is low. I do long snow climbs in CO, but I climb alone and carry two ice axes. If I'm going to fall, it will be on my own accord. But that style is not really that dangerous, it's fairly safe if you good at reading snow conditions and can predict that they will stay good for the duration of your climb. Also another key component to my style is avalanche assessment. I'm not the best in that regard, but I'm good enough to know within a safe margin. I have been in one avalanche, totally my fault. I knew it was bad and I got greedy. I'm very lucky to have survived it.

His comment was indeed related to snow travel, not climbing. This discussion just made me think of it. If I remember right it was from that bad accident on Mt Hood several years back. And I don't think his statement was a purely factual one. I think wry humor was intended, which is how I took it. He made his point and it stuck with me.