rethinking LNT?

[Nessmuk]

What is the actual issue with tossing biodegradable garbage like apple cores and banana peels? The latter do not break down as fast as the former, but eventually are gone. Most cyclists would never toss a foil power par / gel packet and many will stop if one is accidentally dropped. Most think nothing of tossing a banana peel or apple core.

Is it because the item is not native?
Is it because nobody wants to see them while they degrade or get scavenged?

I toss the same items in the compost pile and either they get scavenged by the local critters or turn into a nice fertilizer for the following year.

Speaking in the strictest terms of "black and white" LNT (meaning as taught with no room for judgement for thinking beings).... here is the root of the ethical rationale:

- That's right, banana peels are not native. Same thing with orange peels, which take a very long time to degrade (citrus oil is a mild bug/critter repellent), although apple cores are gone very soon. Ethically you shouldn't introduce something into the environment that is not natively produced. These days the DEC doesn't even want you to bring in non-regional firewood because of the non-native bugs it might contain.

-Of course no one wants to see them degrade. Is one apple core tossed beside the trail OK? How about 2, or 6 orange peels left just off the trail by a hiking group not far from a lean-to? Who makes the "experienced judgement" of how much, and how far?

-The critters that might find a lucky meal on garbage that you toss aside get a one time bonus in life. Or maybe it is a bonus every weekend that someone comes by the same spot. Yes, their life may be extended and they might even get to reproduce once or twice more... until the season is over and suddenly there is no more free lunch. Then what? Or suddenly we have a "habituated bear" problem with starving critters of all sizes. (I reiterate, this is the B/W version of LNT teaching). Would this happen with a once or twice cast apple core? Probably not, but you are not the only hiker out there. Your maintained compost pile next to your house is a different story.

There is latitude in LNT teaching for one time dispersal of food waste, a technique used only in truly primitive sites where a one time broad scattering of minimal food debris is not going to upset the natural food balance. This allows for your rarely cast aside apple core along the trail if it is a truly random location.

So those are the roots of the tossing of garbage no-no. Again, LNT is an education process, sometimes taught with a little too much B/W, yes/no firmness. You are supposed to understand the main ideas (take the course), and then apply rationale and environmental ethics to what you do to the environment.

Having said that, yes I do toss aside my apple core far beyond the trail's edge when I am not anywhere near a campsite. But I always carry out my banana and orange peels.

Take the course, understand the root rationale behind some of the ideas that in the strict B/W sense may seem excessively unreasonable. Then you can apply experienced judgement.

 

[dr_wu002]

Maybe the best method would be to dig the banana peel a cathole.

I've resigned myself to eating the entire apple (core, seeds, and all) so I do not have to decide what to do with it. I don't eat bananas in the woods.

I assume you can annihilate your food waste. Burn it. Blow it up. pour a solvent on it and melt it. Chop it up until you have just molecules left. Bring it home and make it into a cake. Put it in your compost pile. Eat it and make your own compost. I feed my banana peels to the stupid dog that lives across the street. It's his reward for crapping in my driveway.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Tim Seaver]

Please Read This!

I used to be careless about Random Banana Peel Tossing.

Then I found this article, which changed my life. Now I spend my days re-visiting sites forever changed by my careless ways, sobbing gently to myself under the swaying canopy of the many non-native Banana Plantations of the Northeast. Who'd have thought a tropical species would thrive so?

Are banana peels biodegradable?

Few people realize that the banana was the product of early radiation experiments in the South Pacific in the late 1940's. These experiments were conducted on the Bikini Atoll, later the site for a hydrogen bomb explosion, and were conducted under the auspices of the Bikini Atoll Native Plantain Mutation Assignment, BANPAMA, in an effort to produce an edible fruit for the army, that would not decay or degrade with age. The Plantain was selected since it has a tough outer cover that provides protection for the fruit; unfortunately, it is not very palatable when raw. The BANPAMA project was not particularly successful, as the resulting fruits were found to bruise easily. However, they were still fed to unsuspecting natives and servicemen, where they became quite a hit. Introduced to the U.S. as "Banamas" in 1951, by former military scientists who saw there was more money in agriculture than in early attempts at genetic engineering, they immediately became something of a rage. By 1958, "Bananas", as they were known by then, were grown throughout central and south america to feed the hungry U.S. market.

This would be a happy story of a great new food, if it weren't for the sinister secret that was brought to light in 1978 in early studies of "Garbology" (the study of garbage) by scientists from the University of Arizona: the military's original project was not a complete failure after all---although the fruit of the banana was quite vulnerable, the peel contained enzymes that render it impervious to virtually all biological action. In short, every banana peel ever grown until that time was still in existence. This discovery by Arizona scientists led to a series of startling and bizarre revelations, including the fact that since the late 1950's the U.S. military, in a surprisingly successful attempt to cover up their introduction of this non-degradable peel, had a veritable army of specially trained Banana Peel Retrieval Specialists arrayed across the country. Using infrared satellite images to locate suburban compost piles, these commandoes would strike in the dark of night, removing banana peels and replacing them with degradable facsimilies made from wheat, soy, marigold petals, and corn silks. Army experiments to train racoons and possums to do the retrieval were fairly successful, and these methods replaced the manual retrieval method over much of the country by the early 1970's.

The 1978 revelation, and the accompanying outcry, led to a crashprogram by the Department of Agriculture to develop a "Green"banana. By 1981 the program was deemed a success, having produced a banana that degraded slowly but completely, and then-President Ronald Reagan was able to unveil the new banana to coincide with a meeting with heads of state from several Central American countries. Reagan's comment that "I love these things, and I consider myself a Banana Republican", was considered in poor taste and hushed up by the then-malleable press.

So, the answer to the question is: yes, for the past 13 years banana peels have been biodegradable. Banana peels from before 1981 are not degradable, and most of them are still in existence, buried in huge dumps at Hanford, WA and Oak Ridge, TN. Pilot incineration programs have been launched, and if all goes well the non-degradable banana peels will have been disposed of by the year 2005.

--Phil Price

 

[cbcbd]

What are your thoughts? What sort of experiences have you all had with LNT? Do you follow the principles? Do you hate LNT? Do the principles annoy the crap out of you? Are you a devout follower?
Let's have a discussion!

I see LNT as a central point/organization for educating those who find themselves as outdoor enthusiasts and all of a sudden they start spending so much time outside that they start caring for it.

You'll see extremes with everything and IMO with LNT the far "devout" extreme will be those who spend the most time in areas of high use (think of your local friendly ranger). These folks see the worse and they see it a lot and I can't really blame them for feeling passionately for strict LNT.

With that said, I find it real hard to push LNT practices right away on new folks, they just won't "get it". I didn't get it at first - People just have to want to learn of the impact on their own and apply whichever rules they feel are mostly relevant to their situation, and that's all we can ask(hope) of people.

 

[cbcbd]

Are banana peels biodegradable?

It can't be! Kirk Cameron says otherwise



Besides, we should all know that throwing banana peels willy nilly on the trail might only endanger a person who might step on it, slip, and tumble down the trail.

 

[sleeping bear]

I assume you can annihilate your food waste. Burn it. Blow it up. pour a solvent on it and melt it. Chop it up until you have just molecules left. Bring it home and make it into a cake. Put it in your compost pile. Eat it and make your own compost. I feed my banana peels to the stupid dog that lives across the street. It's his reward for crapping in my driveway.

-Dr. Wu

I also eat all of those darn plastic shopping bags because I can't figure out what to do with them either. Then I dig a cathole!

 

[dr_wu002]

I also eat all of those darn plastic shopping bags because I can't figure out what to do with them either. Then I dig a cathole!

When I'm hiking or camping I usually burn plastic bags or pour a solvent on them to dissolve them. For things like those pesky glass beer bottles I carry a jug of hydroflouric acid with me which is quite effective. Removes stains as well, plus sticky pine sap.

We're arguing about whether it's ok to litter or not? And what constitutes litter, right? I'm going to catalog this discussion under "philosophical."

On a recent hike I found a pair of sun glasses. They have a crack but I think I'm going to use them anyway.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Maddy]

I make a valiant effort to LNT.
One of my recent problems has been, I have a rather large collection of small empty propane tanks that I cannot dispose of because no one wants them here in MA.
Even the yearly hazardous waste collectors refused them.
Checked with the fire department. They did research and came up with nothing.
Does anyone know what I should do with these???
I read on the net that Canada is thinking of prohibiting there use because they are such a problem.

 

[David Metsky]

Besides, we should all know that throwing banana peels willy nilly on the trail might only endanger a person who might step on it, slip, and tumble down the trail.

Danger of Mountain Climbing #3: Possibility of Slipping on a Banana Peel

 

[dr_wu002]

Danger of Mountain Climbing #3: Possibility of Slipping on a Banana Peel

I have the solution -- not only do you take care of pesky banana peels but you get fertilizers and a fun pet in the process. No more slipping and sliding.

I was on a summit last summer and threw my banana peel over the edge of the cliff face. .

C'mon Onestep, you know you want worms!

-Dr. Wu

 

[Chip]

I make a valiant effort to LNT.
One of my recent problems has been, I have a rather large collection of small empty propane tanks that I cannot dispose of because no one wants them here in MA.
Even the yearly hazardous waste collectors refused them.
Checked with the fire department. They did research and came up with nothing.
Does anyone know what I should do with these???
I read on the net that Canada is thinking of prohibiting there use because they are such a problem.

Colorado says there's a recycler in NY, but I don't know how that works. It's a great question, one that probably deserves it's own thread and survey. I use white gas to camp and can refill my Grill tanks. I use about 1 small canister a year car/boat camping, and that gets tossed (which I need to re-think as they can explode).

I may start placing them "down range" to make sure they are empty and depressurized before tossing.

 

[sleeping bear]

I make a valiant effort to LNT.
One of my recent problems has been, I have a rather large collection of small empty propane tanks that I cannot dispose of because no one wants them here in MA.
Even the yearly hazardous waste collectors refused them.
Checked with the fire department. They did research and came up with nothing.
Does anyone know what I should do with these???
I read on the net that Canada is thinking of prohibiting there use because they are such a problem.

Yeah, so how is that better than having a fire?? This is what really is getting me right now. Use a stove to cook, use a stove to cook, don't have a fire unless you have. Sure, I understand these are guidelines- but it's stoves, stoves, stoves. All we are doing is displacing the impact. Why is it okay to use up all of the resources (fossil fuels instead of firewood), leave litter all over (landfills), and not care about one natural area over another? It's all the same planet! LNT is a great, but short-sighted, answer to a very large problem.

 

[Chip]

Canisters haven't been a factor until recently, but from what I know, LNT's only concerned with trails. If you asked the originators, I'm sure they'd recommend white gas vs canisters. Plus the wood denuded forests along trails where fires were allowed thing.

PLUS... have you ever actually tried to cook on a fire ? It's not fun. Not exactly what I'd look forward to at the end of a long cold day, regardless.

 

[daxs]

Here in south Jersey the local MUA takes the small propane and isobutane containers on hazardous waste days. Can't say I know what happens to them once I leave them off there though.

 

[forestgnome]

I used to be careless about Random Banana Peel Tossing.

Then I found this article, which changed my life. Now I spend my days re-visiting sites forever changed by my careless ways, sobbing gently to myself under the swaying canopy of the many non-native Banana Plantations of the Northeast. Who'd have thought a tropical species would thrive so?

Are banana peels biodegradable?

Tim, I love your photographic work, but wow! I was having trouble believing that banana story and wondering where it came from, but the idea that the press was ever malleable to, and would cover for, President Reagan is utterly absurd, destroying the credibility of the author.

I don't litter even a banana peel in the forest because it's an act that disrespects the forest, not because of the LNT program. It doesn't matter if trail hikers ever see it or not. I remove the litter of other people every time I hike. I remove their trace, but not so the next human doesn't have to look at it, but because I respect the land.

I have little fires all time. As LNT goes, noone would ever know it was there because I completely naturalize my campsites, and I camp in places that people just don't go. But again, I leave it clean out of respect for the forest.

I wouldn't get bent out of shape if someone tossed a banana peel out of sight of the trail. I'd just kick it under the duff or put it in the trash bag, which I carry on every hike. Bushwackers see lots of stuff that is supposedly "out of sight".

No claim of altruism here. I get satisfaction in leaving the forest cleaner than I found it, so it's part of the enjoyment of every hike.

Nessmuck, I agree with just about all of your posts here, and thank you for your LNT work. But I don't believe in the habituated bear/animal theory. I beleive that a bear could feed on dumpsters for years and have no problem in the forest with the sudden removal of the dumpster. However, we should all be mindful to not feed them, directly or indirectly, anyway, because of other dangers that often result.

happy trails

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I took Tim's post as humor. Googling BANPAMA and other phrases reveal only the site that Tim quoted above.

Is it humor or not?

And just for the record, I also found an article from VeloNews, a reputable cycling publication, stating it was bad to toss peels as it would contribute to roadkill on the animal(s) grabbing the "free meal". (http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5671.0.html) I guess I won't toss the peels any more!

Tim

 

[skiguy]

I wouldn't get bent out of shape if someone tossed a banana peel out of sight of the trail. I'd just kick it under the duff or put it in the trash bag, which I carry on every hike. Bushwackers see lots of stuff that is supposedly "out of sight".

No claim of altruism here. I get satisfaction in leaving the forest cleaner than I found it, so it's part of the enjoyment of every hike.

Great Points here as usual. Just pick up more than you leave. Ironically most trash bags these days are made of products reeped from the environement. How does one LNT.. Not a perfect Science or Practice as they preach....just try your hardest to do your part every day on the trail or not. The Fire Thing is the toughest of all. Still thinking about that one. Great Thread!

 

[forestgnome]

I took Tim's post as humor. Googling BANPAMA and other phrases reveal on the site that Tim quoted above.

Is it humor or not?

And just for the record, I also found an article from VeloNews, a reputable cycling publication, stating it was bad to toss peels as it would contribute to roadkill on the animal(s) grabbing the "free meal". (http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5671.0.html) I guess I won't toss the peels any more!

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana Bananas have been cultivated for thousands of years. I don't think the article is intended to be humorous, however.

Good call about the road kill. I remember finding a dozen dead fish at the Sawyer River TR (Kancamagus end). I feared that bears, who love fish, who get wacked going for the fish. later, I saw a FS officer who agreed and put on his siren and sped off to deal with it. I guess he took it seriously! We suspected it was perch from sawyer Pond

happy trails

 

[Tim Seaver]

I was having trouble believing that banana story and wondering where it came from

Was is the part about the Banana Peel Retrieval Specialists, or the "Banana peels from before 1981 are not degradable" part, that gave you such trouble?

 

[cushetunk]

I agree with Groucho!

Not so fast, Neil. I'm calling you on this if you hike in the High Peaks!