Rope Usage Questions

[Halite]

I dissagree that fixed anchors should always be used when roped together. On class 4 or easy class 5 it is quite safe to both climb at the same time with gear placed by the leader and taken out by the second. Now this is based on 2 things, this kind of roped climbing is assuming the probabilty of falling is small, the climbers are proficient at climbing the grade thier climbing but the margin of safety in soloing it is thin. On traverses on big peaks, quite frankly stopping to set up belays is a waste of time, thier is not that much gear placed to begin with and taking in the rope is a son of a gun, your going to fall anyway, its not like a veritcal pitch on a crag. The idea is, even if you fall you wont fall to your death, thats the line of thinking, it is quite possble for the leader to occasionally stop, place his feet against a boulder to allow the second to "pull" a hard move then the leader is back up and climbing, the point is speed. Out west in CO there are 4 great traverses between 14ers, many rope up on these, but I tell you this, you must be fast. It takes awaile to get up there, awahile on the traverse and then the descent, IM talking a mile of technical, given the thunderstorm probabilty out west, you cant take hours and hours belaying, setting up anchors and such, your setting yourself up for an epic.
Let me add, I would NOT utilize the above techniques with begginers, these are proven techniques for proven climbers, thats important.

You make a great point. When heading off into the mountains, there are other potential risks besides falling. Quite often, speed is safety. So trade-offs are made by highly experienced mountaineers between speed and bomber belays.

The problem that ChrisB pointed out has been the overestimation of a roped party's ability to hold a fall on steep, icy terrain without the use of anchors. Recent studies have demonstrated that the forces involved in one of these falls are almost impossible to hold without an anchor. So roping up doesn't help the person who fell and instead potentially causes others to fall as well.

 

[TCD]

Very good points about running belays and ice. My rule of thumb for ice is that a moderately steep ice slope should be treated the same as a clean vertical rock cliff, in terms of the acceleration and forces generated. If a climber doesn't self arrest on 45 degree ice, the hit will be pretty similar to a vertical fall.

But I use running belays on rock when it's appropriate. A classic example is the NW buttress of Tenaya Peak (in Tuolomne). Its about 15 pitches, and gradually increases in steepness, with the first third being 3rd class, the middle being 4th class to 5.3 friction, and the last couple pitches being close to vertical and about 5.5. My partner (my wife) and I have done that one a couple times. How you do it depends on your comfort level, but we solo the early part, we simul-climb using running belays on the middle part, and then we used fixed belays for the last two pitches. It's a great climb, and also a great place to teach the use of technique appropriate to the terrain.

 

[thuja]

This summer I bought a map of Baxter State Park and found that all the trails were marked with class ratings. In particular, Abol Slide and the Knife Edge were both rated IV. That seemed a bit much for Abol Slide and kind of marginal for the KE.

Indeed. The notion of any trail being 4th class, as commonly understood, is highly fanciful. A contradiction in terms. More proof that Baxter is the center of its own little hermetic universe and does not operate by the same rules as the rest of the world.

 

[weatherman]

Baxter-correct me if I'm wrong, but...

I believe the "class" system in Baxter has nothing to do with any accepted climbing classifications. It's really a way for the rangers there to classify what trails are the most challenging compared to one another (like a black diamond ski trail at an easy ski area is nothing like a black diamond at another one) and which close first when the weather gets bad in the summer season. On a class I day, all trails are "open", on a class III day (like rain/wind), the knife edge is "closed", and a class IV day(ice/snow, really bad wind), all trails to and above treeline are "closed". I forget what class II is.

 

[Bob Kittredge]

Baxter map clarification

Now that I'm home, I can look at the map and see their explanation of the ratings:

Class III - very difficult. rugged and steep. may be dangerous (Hunt, Dudley, Doubletop, Helon Taylor, etc.

Class IV - always dangerous. may require technical climbing skills (Abol, Knife Edge)

Again, saying that the Abol "may require technical climbing skills" is, at best, debatable.

 

[MattC]

Thanks for all the replies, particularly those that cite specific examples. Obviously this thread has grown into a discussion beyond the scope of my question, and that's cool w/ me. Even though most of what you guys are talking about is technically way beyond what I'm doing in the backcountry, I find it fascinating. Carry on...

Matt

 

[Tom Rankin]

Class IV - always dangerous. may require technical climbing skills (Abol, Knife Edge)

Other than the chimney between Pamola and the summit of Katahdin, there are no difficult parts of the knife edge, IMHO. It's a little intimidating psychologically if you let it get to you, but you just keep putting one foot in front of the other. This was in summer, with a good stiff breeze blowing. I'm sure it gets worse, but like you said, 'always dangerous' seems to be an exaggeration. It's always dangerous to drive a car too by that logic...

 

[cbcbd]

Other than the chimney between Pamola and the summit of Katahdin, there are no difficult parts of the knife edge, IMHO. It's a little intimidating psychologically if you let it get to you, but you just keep putting one foot in front of the other. This was in summer, with a good stiff breeze blowing. I'm sure it gets worse, but like you said, 'always dangerous' seems to be an exaggeration. It's always dangerous to drive a car too by that logic...

From talking to a BSP ranger last time I was there it seemed like many of their efforts are to prevent the everyday non-hiking Joe from underestimating the mountain, going up above tree line and a) not able or scared to come down b) getting stuck into the night above treeline c) killing themselves because they thought it'd be a walk in the park.

He told me many stories where a, b, or c had happened so they take great care to educate everyday people in order to save lives and make their ranger jobs more pleasant - their IV rating and description does exactly what they want it to do, intimidate those that don't know their limitations yet.
BSP takes great care to check up on people (ie. each ranger station calling each other making sure everyone on the trail registers arrived at their destinations).

 

[ChrisB]

I think Baxter's rating system is derrived from the old class 1-5 system that's been around for a long time.

This link accesses a table that the 14ers publish that is based on that old system.

In summer, I'd say Abol and Knife Edge are class 2 at the most. In winter, however, the Knife Edge might go to class 4, depending on conditions. Lots of hard snow and bare ice would make a fall potentially fatal.

cb