Safety gear conundrum.

[Kevin Rooney]

FWIW, it sustained no damage in my one use (wrapped around me as I sat on a pad). It is robust enough and easy enough to repack that you can take it out and look at it without damaging it.

Doug

This is a bit of a tangent, but ... does anyone hike with a large dog, one that would either be too heavy to carry at all, or too heavy to carry to the trailhead? If so - how would you get your dog out safely in the event it became incapacitated, especially in winter?

My solution, and I don't know that it would work in practice as I've never had to use it, but I carry in winter if I'm hiking with Brutus is an emergency tarp. It's silver on one side/orange on the other, and is the type often use by SAR types to place in the toboggan/litter first, then place blankets, the patient, etc. The tarp is then wrapped around the patient like a taco, keeping him/her warm and waterproof. They're rather tough, have the usual grommets, etc, and if necessary my plan would be to position the big guy on top of the tarp, and then tow him downhill. Hope I never have to use it in this manner.

 

[Hikes4fun]

Kevin.....I've thought of the consequences...Shiloh's not as big as yours but still hits 100#'s....Although he's hiked quite few ADK peaks in the past, I left him home this year...The tarp is a good idea...Any time of the year...

 

[Maddy]

This is a bit of a tangent, but ... does anyone hike with a large dog, one that would either be too heavy to carry at all, or too heavy to carry to the trailhead? If so - how would you get your dog out safely in the event it became incapacitated, especially in winter?

My solution, and I don't know that it would work in practice as I've never had to use it, but I carry in winter if I'm hiking with Brutus is an emergency tarp. It's silver on one side/orange on the other, and is the type often use by SAR types to place in the toboggan/litter first, then place blankets, the patient, etc. The tarp is then wrapped around the patient like a taco, keeping him/her warm and waterproof. They're rather tough, have the usual grommets, etc, and if necessary my plan would be to position the big guy on top of the tarp, and then tow him downhill. Hope I never have to use it in this manner.

Wow...I can't believe you brought this up because I have been thinking about this a whole lot lately. I thought of buying a blue tarp and I have 25 ft of rope. Kodi weights ~100lbs. I would tow her out and probably never walk again but it's a given that I would do whatever was required to get her out.
Your emergency tarp might be a better choice.
Bernie isn't a problem because his disabilities dictate that we walk in a park where there are people nearby, most of them dog owners, or dog lovers.
I thought of one of those roll up sleds but don't know if that would be appropriate or not. It might be easier in winter because we could slide them out.
Seems like our hiking fur kids have their own set of "safety gear" related issues.

 

[Neil]

I hear it's an awesomely safe hike with 50 lbs. on your back.

The big hike with the 50 pounder wears away the attachement points of the cruciate ligaments, bit by bit, every step of the way. But....nothing happens on that big hike. Then....many moons later, crossing a stream in summer over a few slippery rocks with a 9 pound pack. Ka-blooey! One blown ACL.

 

[Maddy]

Does anyone know the rate of injury statistics for sherpas who carry those heavy loads in the Himalaya? They seem to be so much tougher than many or us, and I would be at the top of that list.

Perhaps we could get retired sherpas from India to help us out here in NE, or hire or very own. I can recall someone names "Bones" who was advertising that he would carry your pack for you on any hike in the Whites. I don't know how many takers he got, but I did consider it. This could be a good source of revenue for a hiker who is out of work and looking for a little extra cash.

OR..another consideration might be to invest in our very own lhammas. They would not be useful in all conditions, but that does not rule them out completely.
Lots of possibilities here. Many possible solutions to the "safety gear conundrum."
http://www.llamaadventure.com/

This is also very interesting and a possibility for winter ascents.
In 1979 Susan Butcher, Joe Redington and Ray Genet climbed Denali with
a dog team. They were the very first ever.

"I do not know the word quit. Either I never did or have somehow abolished it from my language."
-Susan Butcher

 

[Neil]

One thing to bear in mind regarding focusing on gear relative to safety: the weekend hiker's body.

In the gym or out jogging you tend to apply very symmetrical loads onto your musculoskeletal system. Especially the joints, ligaments, cartilage etc. We spend the interval between hikes on perfect surfaces: floors, sidewalks, stairs, treadmills or sitting on our rear ends (is your rear end perfect? . As a result there is little to no asymmetrical challenge, and little to no no effort to maintain one's balance on irregular surfaces. Not only do the connective tissues atrophy but the hugely underrated neural control mechanisms become dulled.

Due to this, when you toss a load onto your back and head out onto the trails your risk of injury is higher. The most common type of injury is gradual and due to accumulated stress. Repetitive strain, wear and tear, degenerative joint disease, call it what you will. One definition of injury, whether acute or chronic, is the inability of tissue to absorb and dissipate energy.

One way to prevent all of this is to make extensive use of gym balls and balance boards and to try and do your endurance training on natural surfaces. Any exercises done in a gym are best done standing or at least sitting or lying on a gym ball. Free weights are much better than machines.

 

[Craig]

Pack Weight

I find it interesting, in these threads, the different pack weights that are thrown around.

I think it may be helpful to have a better understanding of what a prepared persons pack weight would be in this day and age of light weigh material.

I can tell you from experience that a 50lb pack will have everything 1 person needs to spend a week out in winter anywhere in the US. This would include food, fuel, tent, -20 degree bag, shovel, axe, radio etc. This includes a pack with a dead weight of 6lbs.

I have carried a 70lb pack that included all the above including 2 weeks food w/ cheese, fresh vegetables, whole potatoes, avi transceiver etc.

I would think a person could be reasonably prepared for almost any winter situation in NE with a pack weight of 15lbs. This assumes no sleeping bag, snowshoes on you're feet and 1 liter of water.

What are folks carrying for a day hike in the NE that drives your pack weight above 20lbs?

Just because someone is carrying a 75L pack doesn't mean it weighs 50lbs...
In this particular situation I don't think size matters.

 

[Maddy]

This is very interesting. It relates to scientists studying why sherpas, young and old, can carry such heavy loads for prolonged periods of time, on very steep, difficult terrain.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4707462

They do not appear to experience more injuries because of carrying these loads but rather their bodies adapt, evolve, and they are super strong.

There may be more updated scientific data available but have not found any yet.

It would seem that one's priorities would be the deciding factor. Carrying less weight and increasing speed vs carrying more weight and moving at a slower pace.
Of course if one is not fit for what one attempts to take on, one could be an accident waiting to happen either way.

 

[John H Swanson]

I find it interesting, in these threads, the different pack weights that are thrown around.

I think it may be helpful to have a better understanding of what a prepared persons pack weight would be in this day and age of light weigh material.

I would think a person could be reasonably prepared for almost any winter situation in NE with a pack weight of 15lbs. This assumes no sleeping bag, snowshoes on you're feet and 1 liter of water.

What are folks carrying for a day hike in the NE that drives your pack weight above 20lbs?

Just because someone is carrying a 75L pack doesn't mean it weighs 50lbs...
In this particular situation I don't think size matters.

Pack, contents, and weights in grams after efforts to reduce its weight

PACK-McHale SARC with thin inside pocket 2146
EXTRA WOOL SOCKS-RAGG 118
TNF PolorGuard Jacket 752
Marmot Wind Shirt 354
Precip Jacket 328
WOOL GLOVES 44
OR Med Wt Synthetic GLOVES 50
OVERMITTS 150
GRANITE GEAR MITTENS 398
FACE MASK 55
GOGGLES w sack 134
Windblock Hat 46
Fleece Ski Band 25
STUFFSACK Large Black 58

MAP 50
Headlamp 94
SUNSCREEN 50
Thermometer 26
TP w/lighter 50
PLASTIC BAG Contractors grade 33 gal 188
First Aid Kit 126
SUNGLASSES W CASE 68
Camera in case 174
Chemical Handwarmers (1 sets) 50
Wallet and keys 200

DITTY BAG E 60
PENCIL 4
Rope - Purple 2 56
Iodine 24
WHISTLE 8
IBUPROFEN 10
Floss w needles 12
BLISTIC 8
LIGHTER 18
COMPASS 25
LACE / Small Rope 18
SWISS ARMY KNIFE 84
LED Pinch Light 12
Stub Candle and 2 Fire Starter 26
SUB TOTAL DITTY BAG 365

small nalgene with water 556
small insulator 98
Gatoraide 1Qt with water 1100

Food 400

Total Pack Weight in kg 8.25

FYI in lbs:

Weight without crampons or snowshoes 18.2
Weight carrying microspikes 19.0
Weight carrying snowshoes 22.8
Weight Carrying both crampons and snowshoes 23.6

When the temps drop, I add

PRIMALOFT PANTS w stuff sack 632

 

[Craig]

No matter what your definition of “prepared” is, I think most folks would agree that is a very comprehensive list of items. Thanks for posting that.

So lets say a prepared individual would carry 20lbs on his back.
And let say a light and fast dude would carry 5-10lbs on his back.

So the basis of the conundrum is 10-15lbs.

So how much faster and safer can one be by carrying 5-10lbs vs 20lbs? And is the risk/reward ratio still the same given these assumptions?

 

[Tim Seaver]

Storyland Part 3

So how much faster and safer can one be by carrying 5-10lbs vs 20lbs? And is the risk/reward ratio still the same given these assumptions?

Another story:

I was doing a trail run of Signal Ridge on Carrigain (summer) , carrying probably about 4-6 lbs. On the way up, I passed two hikers with good sized packs. Once at the summit tower, I saw a huge group of boiling black-bellied thunderclouds headed right at Carrigain, a total surprise, as sunny skies still held further down the ridge. I bolted down the trail, encountering the same two hikers, who were still a few miles from the summit, and warned them of the incoming t-storm ( not implying that they should turn around, but just relaying what I saw).

They looked at me quizzically. Then they looked at the blue sky above. Then they looked at me again with a slight smile (the kind you give to your crazy Aunt), before moseying on up the trail.

And who could blame them - they had "invested" all the work of hauling fairly large packs up a long trail, and certainly weren't going to "waste" that effort by hurrying down the mountain because some crazed runner-dude is all freaked out by a few clouds rolling by. And even if they wanted to, their large packs would hinder any effort to quickly descend ( barring abandoning them).

So I zipped back to my car, which I arrived at about 10 minutes before one of the most intense lightning storms I have ever seen break loose, right over Carrigain, for a good 45 minutes. I think it's safe to say the hikers I met had a very memorable experience on the upper reaches of Carrigain that day.

So in this particular instance, I would say that the answer to "how much safer" I was carrying a 5 lb.-ish pack speaks for itself. Sometimes mobility IS safety in situations were all the gear in the world is nothing more than trinkets to be washed down the river.

 

[Grumpy]

... So in this particular instance, I would say that the answer to "how much safer" I was carrying a 5 lb.-ish pack speaks for itself. Sometimes mobility IS safety in situations were all the gear in the world is nothing more than trinkets to be washed down the river.

This story also reflects old wisdom that all your "safety" stuff isn't carried in your pack. A lot of it surely is carried between your ears, in the form of knowledge and judgment. In fact, that well may be the most important part of your kit.

G.

 

[cbcbd]

No matter what your definition of “prepared” is, I think most folks would agree that is a very comprehensive list of items. Thanks for posting that.

So lets say a prepared individual would carry 20lbs on his back.
And let say a light and fast dude would carry 5-10lbs on his back.

So the basis of the conundrum is 10-15lbs.

So how much faster and safer can one be by carrying 5-10lbs vs 20lbs? And is the risk/reward ratio still the same given these assumptions?

Craig, I think this is where these conversations just reach no end. There are too many variables to compute "faster and safer" depending on what or how much you carry. You can't just label one group the "prepared" and the other "light and fast".

I would rather like to relabel two groups as such:
Inflexible
Flexible

The trip #1:
The forecast is calling for 100% gorgeous weather. Big high pressure system just pounding your local mountains for the whole week with temps in the 40s up at elevation. Warm temps and no winds and you confirm that as such when you get to the TH. You have a dayhike planned to a winter peak above treeline.

The Inflexible group: I like to be prepared for everything, even a winter storm in the Sahara, so I will load up my pack like I usually do for every trip. My packs are about the same for Winter and Summer, other than some changes in clothing I will still take my 10 lighters, a box of matches, some waxed cotton balls, and a flint, just in case.

The flexible group: The weather is awesome and it's supposed to be warm all week long - they might screw up forecasts for a day or half a day... but a whole week? Damn, I'm not taking my mittens, extra jacket, extra hat, goggles, extra socks, stove, overnight gear. And hey, is it supposed to be so warm that I can wear my lighter weight boots? Awesome! Is the trail I chose usually well packed and well travelled? Does it usually get icy? Can I leave heavy flotation behind?
Well, maybe I'll take the snowshoes just in case and see what conditions are like - and hey, look, at 6 miles in I still haven't used the snowshoes and conditions are great - am I coming back the same way? Yes. Awesome, I will stash the snowshoes in the trees and get them on the way back.

The trip #2:
Forecast is calling for some PM snow showers, temps in the singles, winds 10mph+, gusts up to 30mph. It has been a cold, snowy, and cloudy winter. You have a dayhike planned to a winter peak above treeline.

Inflexible group - I will take my pack that I always take with me. The formula hasn't done me wrong yet.

Flexible group - It has been a cold and snowy winter. I will probably see lots of new and unconsolidated powder in the trails - I will take the snowshoes and probably use them. It's going to be cold and windy, I'm taking my warmest mitts, a balaclava and another hat, my goggles, and maybe an extra layer of insulation top. If I think it might be so cold and slow going I might even consider taking my heavy thermos with a real hot drink for the day.


What I'm getting at is that it's not cut and dry and people have a choice. I hope we can all can get away from our pre-fabbed lists of must-haves for every outing and actually pay attention to ourselves, our experience, the weather, the conditions, and make better decisions based on those and not a list someone said you should have or the ideal pack weight for every trip. I might be labeled as "light and fast", but that's probably because I don't like carrying a lot of extra weight. But I have gone on trips carrying a lot of weight because well, that is just what needed to be carried based on all these variables.

Although I will still say, and it is nothing new, speed is safety.

 

[Craig]

So in this particular instance, I would say that the answer to "how much safer" I was carrying a 5 lb.-ish pack speaks for itself. Sometimes mobility IS safety in situations were all the gear in the world is nothing more than trinkets to be washed down the river.

The thing I like about antidotal stories is you can pick and choose which story best fits your position.

Ok, so in your story lets say while running the ridge you trip over a root and take a soil sample with your face. In the process your knee hits a rock and shatters your cap.

After the initial 10 minutes of excruciating pain your able to gather your thoughts long enough to realize that the storm will likely overtake you before you're able to get off the ridge.

In an attempt to access your options you reach around, grab your fanny pack and jam your hand down into it's cavernous depths only to find a power bar rapper and a tube of chapstick.

As you're laying there trying to figure out how to splint your knee with a tube of chapstick those 2 folks with their gargantuan packs waddle up the trail.

.... I hope we can all can get away from our pre-fabbed lists of must-haves for every outing and actually pay attention to ourselves, our experience, the weather, the conditions, and make better decisions based on those and not a list someone said you should have or the ideal pack weight for every trip....
Although I will still say, and it is nothing new, speed is safety.

Lets say you don't have a lot of experience.

Not everyone has a repository of firsthand knowledge that they can access. Some folks, at best, have a knowledge base primary gained from reading discussions like this.

 

[cbcbd]

Lets say you don't have a lot of experience.

Not everyone has a repository of firsthand knowledge that they can access. Some folks, at best, have a knowledge base primary gained from reading discussions like this.

I say find a mentor, take a class with a guide, the AMC, a school club, NOLS, Outward Bound, etc. I think the quickest and best way to learn this is to get outside with a knowledgeable teacher answering all your questions, showing the tricks, and explaining the whys of everything.

When I first joined this site in '05 I had no winter experience. I had done summer backpacks and hikes and that got me started with the basics but winter is a whole different ballgame - especially with the amount of gear necessary. I remember reading trip reports and threads like this and just feeling extremely overwhelmed with all the new information.

I hope anyone reading this thread looking to get winter experience heads out with an experienced teacher and listens to them.

It doesn't bother me to see a newbie carrying everything and the kitchen sink when they start out. But if they keep blindly doing everything by the book after they get experience then I start to worry that they might get stuck in that inflexible rut.

 

[Craig]

Sound advice.

So perhaps the message should be:

Until you have gained enough first hand experience to make sound personal decisions regarding preparedness, it appears the difference in weight is only 10-15lbs. Why not err on the side of caution.

After all, organizations have been creating list of essential equipment since time.

 

[Maddy]

I say find a mentor, take a class with a guide, the AMC, a school club, NOLS, Outward Bound, etc. I think the quickest and best way to learn this is to get outside with a knowledgeable teacher answering all your questions, showing the tricks, and explaining the whys of everything.

I hope anyone reading this thread looking to get winter experience heads out with an experienced teacher and listens to them.

Good common sense. Excellent recommendation.

 

[Little Rickie]

Good common sense

Shouldn't that be the guide?

 

[Chugach001]

My opinion is formed by a couple experiences and observations;

1. People do HUGE trips with minimal gear all the time with great safety. Between the Iditasport events, the AK Wilderness Classic summer and winter events, and all the similar informal trips, we have seen that people can go hundreds of miles through the worst conditions with minimal gear (and a lot of savvy). And, to date, not one death.

2. This has always been the case with excursions, there has always been the fully competent lightweight approach - even to the poles. Likewise; Eskimos and Aleuts were famous for their ventures with minimal "gear". Even white goldminers. Some nut rode a bicycle 1,500 miles down the Yukon one winter over 100 years ago.

So if we accept these facts, we should ask why and learn their secrets.

3. I've had a few forced bivies on cliffs so I know what's involved and don't need to pack for a comfortable night out. At the same time I have bivied when I was the most prepared member of my group and saw my partners suffer mightily while I was able to catnap.

4. I think to take this approach you must enact a 24 hour panic rule with loved ones. No one gets worked up unless I am more than 24 hours overdue. IMHO, Everyone should bear the responsibility of keeping themselves intact for 24 hours.

All that being said, I usually play it safer than I need to - just in case and to be a good citizen.

 

[Maddy]

IMHO, Everyone should bear the responsibility of keeping themselves intact for 24 hours.

All that being said, I usually play it safer than I need to - just in case and to be a good citizen.

When I mentioned this thread over coffee to an experienced hiker yesterday, she calmly stated " If you are not strong enough to carry your safety gear, perhaps you should rethink placing yourself in conditions where you might not survive if you don't have any. You also need to be prepared to accept full responsibility for your actions if things don't work out."" That was the end of that discussion!

Neil's point re: fitness is well taken. IMHO this is critical. An Olympian who was giving out advice recently said it well. "If you do something over and over again, you will get really good at it. You need to be determined and persistent." The audio I posted on the scientific study of Sherpas is a great example of this. They carry up to 2x their body weight, early morning 'til night, ages 14-68, on very difficult terrain and manage quite well. I was thinking I would love to have their input on this topic.

One more thing that comes to mind is that sometimes when you are with a group, you can divide up the gear and each person helps share the load. It's often when you are solo, or hiking with children that things take on new meaning, and IMHO one cannot throw caution to the wind.

I also don't have lots of money to give to Lt Borgadus!

I do not pack a "heavy" load at this time. Everything is seriously modified, as is the area, and type of terrain I hike. The body handed me a new set of rules and I am not sherpa material!

To be perfectly honest, each time I pack my "gear",I ponder lightening my load. Immediately a flashback of my very serious hypothermic event in No MN comes to mind, and the thought is swiftly eradicated.
No way do I EVER want to be that cold again.