Safety gear conundrum.

[Maddy]

I carry a large garage bag as a give away for this purpose.
Cheap so I won't even hesitiate to pull it out if it is needed.
Quite effective - probably one of the most efficient items in reducing heat loss.

What a great idea! Thanks for sharing that. Very lightweight to.

 

[bandana4me]

A Different Outlook

The difference might be that they only go on a couple of hikes per year and therefore the probability of being in an emergency situation is much lower than someone who goes out 25-50 times a year or more.

On the other side someone who walks in the Whites 4-5 days a week can become complacent (dare I say arrogant) and not feel the need to carry extra equippment.

This is a category I fall under.

 

[Raven]

This is always an interesting and thought-provoking topic of conversation. One thought I would add is that IMO going on a hike is like starting an experiment with an unknown outcome. The desired result is usually to attain some physical and/or emotional/spiritual goal while avoiding injury or death. The reason to me that it becomes so difficult to standardize an appropriate gear list is due to the nearly unlimited variables encountered on any hike. We could fill another thread listing those variables, but primarily they have to do with individual physical differences among hikers, differences in mental constitution, the sum of experiences one can draw upon, and the resources available to the hiker (in pack or elsewhere). This is of course without even mentioning the very important, yet uncontrollable variables due to changes in conditions on the mountain. When one assesses his/her own list of these variables, the gear carried can ideally act to compliment the skills and experiences brought withough hindering them by being too cumbersome. In other words, I believe experience trumps gear, but also that there is a minimum needed level of each for each person to survive in most situations even though there are one or two people I know could survive a winter night on Jefferson with almost no traditional gear as well as some who might need to call SAR from Crag Camp on acold night - I'm being slightly facetious here I think most would agree a level head is the most important thing to bring to the mountains and of course the idea that your gear is just dead weight if you don't how to use it - if you know 18 ways to use one piece of gear, you increase your chances of successfully finishing that experiment.

Always a great topic to get people thinking about what they carry, what they know, and what they can use in their surroundings - in an of itself, a hugely important mental exercise. Emergencies are best dealt with in advance.

FYI - I tend to carry a little more than most probably but I hike almost exclusively solo. If I break a leg, I would like to be found resting warm in my bag with a cup of tea. Pack is light enough for me.

 

[Little Rickie]

I carry a large garage bag as a give away for this purpose.
Cheap so I won't even hesitiate to pull it out if it is needed.
Quite effective - probably one ofthe most efficient items in reducing heat loss.

55 gallon bags are huge. Two of them can be used as a bivy &or stuffed with fluff for insulation.

 

[griffin]

What if these people are VERY aware of the risk of landing in trouble and needing help/rescue - so they're saving the money they would have spend on gear to pay for the resulting fines?

 

[jniehof]

Lets say the probability of having an an accident requiring evacuation assitance is .001. For someone who hikes twice a year for 10 years p=.02 for the entire the decade.

Within rounding error, yes. (0.0198)

For someone hiking 25 times a year for 10 years p=.25. If they hike for 20 years p=.5.

0.22 and 0.39, respectively.

As you point out, the math isn't necessarily useful in decision making. If it's going to be useless, it might as well be correct

 

[PA Ridgerunner]

I would stop, lend a hand as best I could, but would apply the "two victim" rule.

My wife, a former Red Cross water safety instructor, once asked me what was worse than a drowning. In response to my blank stare she said, "a double drowning."

 

[paul ron]

In all seriousness, waht is the minimum we should carry with us on a day hike?

I generally take enough clothes n equipment to stay a night in the woods. Maybe an uncomfortable night but at least a survival night.

A Mylar sleeping bag, sold as a silver emergency bag or a tube tent is even lighter than a garbage bag.
silny tarp n micro line
extra snacks n a freeze dried meal
My canister stove n lighter
TP n handwipes
1/2 Foam sleeping pad
Headlamp n exrta batteries
Some emergency medical n repair supplies, bandages n several doses of 400mg motrins.

Clothes
down sweater n Thermawrap pants to supplement what I am wearing.
Extra socks
Extra hat n heavy gloves

All this fits nicely in my small Osprey day pack.

What's in your kit?

 

[Tim Seaver]

Some may even say that flowery conditions reports contribute to riskier behavior.

Thinking about this further, I would say that it would be more accurate to say that some people's faulty interpretation of a given trip report is what contributes to any excessive risk taking - it certainly isn't the fault of someone who describes their enjoyable day in the mountains without detailing every hazard known to man. Anyone who modifies their plans/gear list substantially based on a stranger's digital scribbles on the Intertoobz isn't being very smart.

As the saying goes:

The bear and the rabbit will never agree on how dangerous a dog is.

 

[sierra]

Ever noticed lots of people on the trail with very small packs and less than appropriate clothing? I used to wonder what their secret was, considering I eschew overnight gear almost all the time and still seem to have a huge pack compared to them.

The difference might be that they only go on a couple of hikes per year and therefore the probability of being in an emergency situation is much lower than someone who goes out 25-50 times a year or more.

This seems like a paradox: the more experienced you are, the more you go out. Therefore the more likely it is that something untoward will eventually happen to you. As a result it behooves you to carry a heavy pack with sufficient gear to deal with the various case scenarios that you read about.

But, the heavier your pack the more likely you are to get injured or become benighted. What happens when you take this to the extreme? Do you stay home and increase your odds of coming down with vascular disease?

Nothing personal but I must strongly dissagree with 2 of your points, Carrying more weight leads to injury or being benighted that makes no sense whatsoever.Secondly the more you go out and the more experience you have the more likely you are to be injured makes even less sense then the first point. Im willing to bet if you took 50 low experienced hikers with light packs and set them off on a presi traverse 20 times, then sent off 50 experinced hikers with heavy packs on the same hike the same amount of times, the experienced guys lugging heavy packs would fair much better.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

Nothing personal but I must strongly dissagree with 2 of your points, Carrying more weight leads to injury or being benighted that makes no sense whatsoever.

So you not just disagree but strongly dissagree that a person carrying more weight has a better chance of getting injured? Were not talking about having gear to take care of yourself after your injured but getting an injury in the first place. So you think a person having a 10 pound pack is just as likely to get an injury as a person carrying a 50 pound pack..the same person experienced or not?

 

[Tim Seaver]

So you think a person having a 10 pound pack is just as likely to get an injury as a person carrying a 50 pound pack..the same person experienced or not?

Just for fun, lets put these hypothetical hikers on the Huntington Ravine trail.

I hear it's an awesomely safe hike with 50 lbs. on your back.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

...A Mylar sleeping bag, sold as a silver emergency bag or a tube tent is even lighter than a garbage bag.

IMHO, this is worse than useless, as it creates a false sense of security if it's the Mylar bag I'm thinking of. It's incredibly flimsy, and will shred easily. You'd be better going to Home Depot or Lowes and buying a box of HD trash bags and carrying 2 or 3 of those.

Better yet, get a Blizzard Bag for $35-50, depending upon specials. It combines a sleeping bag/waterproof bivy functions for about a pound. It's used by SAR and some military special units around the world.

 

[DougPaul]

IMHO, this is worse than useless, as it creates a false sense of security if it's the Mylar bag I'm thinking of. It's incredibly flimsy, and will shred easily. You'd be better going to Home Depot or Lowes and buying a box of HD trash bags and carrying 2 or 3 of those.

I agree--these bags are pretty flimsy and probably not of much use in the wind. I have one, but only carry it in summer and have never used it. ~3oz.

Better yet, get a Blizzard Bag for $35-50, depending upon specials. It combines a sleeping bag/waterproof bivy functions for about a pound. It's used by SAR and some military special units around the world.

The Adventure Medical Thermo-Lite Bivy is somewhere between the above two. Made of a moderately sturdy fabric. (FWIW, I used mine as a wind-break while waiting (sitting up) for the evac crew following my accident. It is repacked and ready to use again.) ~6oz. http://www.rei.com/product/750938

The three items above are a microcosm of the general trade-off--more weight produces better function.

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

The Adventure Medical Thermo-Lite Bivy is somewhere between the above two. Made of a moderately sturdy fabric. (FWIW, I used mine as a wind-break while waiting (sitting up) for the evac crew following my accident. It is repacked and ready to use again.) ~6oz. http://www.rei.com/product/750938

Yes, I agree it's a good one - have one myself, and carried it before the Blizzard Bag was introduced. Since the Blizzard costs about the same as the Adventure Medical item and provides some warmth, I steer people towards that item.

PS - I used to put the Adventure Medical inside my emergency metal cup (the one you'll need to melt snow/heat water in an emergency) before putting it in it's stuff sack as the metal cup provides some abrasion resistance.

 

[Maddy]

Yes, I agree it's a good one - have one myself, and carried it before the Blizzard Bag was introduced. Since the Blizzard costs about the same as the Adventure Medical item and provides some warmth, I steer people towards that item.

PS - I used to put the Adventure Medical inside my emergency metal cup (the one you'll need to melt snow/heat water in an emergency) before putting it in it's stuff sack as the metal cup provides some abrasion resistance.

Kevin...with regards to the Blizzard bag, down to what temps would it keep you warm? Would it be like a -20, a 0 degree, a +20 or more? I know everyone is different but I am assuming that a person would have adequate winter gear on. Do you recommend carrying a light sleeping bag to put inside the Blizzard bag?

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Maddy -

I would regard the Blizzard as a survival bag. I don't recall reading on their website any temperature rating. I tend to distrust ratings anyway, unless it's a 1st tier maker and I've had prior experience with their bag, but that's just me.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that it's probably somewhere between a 30-50 degree F rating, more the typical mild summer bag, but ... I remind myself that if I ever needed it, I'd have on everything I owned anyway. I never placed another sleeping bag within it, so I don't know whether that might be feasible.

If a person has known hypothermia issues - and i know you put yourself in that category - then maybe a 0F bag and the Adventure Medical bivy is the best option - but only you can make that call.

As an aside on the Adventure Medical bivy (and I've posted this comment before) - when I was eyeing it on the rack over at Pinkham, a young crew member behind the counter volunteered her experience. Apparently the summer before, immediately after college graduation she wanted to spend the summer in the mountains of New Mexico, but had very little money, so she bought one to use a tent/bivy. She said that despite all the thorns and cacti, it never ripped nor punctured during several weeks of continuous use. So, it's pretty tough stuff.

 

[Maddy]

Thanks Kevin...something to think about before I rush off and buy the Blizzard bag.

I do have a serious problem with cold but I still love winter best!

I have the Adventure bivy bag but have never had to use it. Good to know it's that sturdy.

 

[DougPaul]

As an aside on the Adventure Medical bivy (and I've posted this comment before) - when I was eyeing it on the rack over at Pinkham, a young crew member behind the counter volunteered her experience. Apparently the summer before, immediately after college graduation she wanted to spend the summer in the mountains of New Mexico, but had very little money, so she bought one to use a tent/bivy. She said that despite all the thorns and cacti, it never ripped nor punctured during several weeks of continuous use. So, it's pretty tough stuff.

Take a look at my earlier link to the REI webpage--there are 5 comments ranging from someone who used it regularly and thought it was fairly tough to people who found it to be too delicate. There are also multiple versions, some might be tougher than others.

FWIW, it sustained no damage in my one use (wrapped around me as I sat on a pad). It is robust enough and easy enough to repack that you can take it out and look at it without damaging it.

Doug

 

[Hikes4fun]

In all seriousness, waht is the minimum we should carry with us on a day hike?
What's in your kit?

AM Emergency Bivy bag
Extra Smartwool shirt/Socks
Montbell Primaloft Parka or in real cold weather an 800 fill puffy and Hard Shell
Extra wool hat-heavy gloves and down mittens..balacava
Marmot DriClime Pants
Jetboil Stove
Normal hiking food
Gear bag of TP-Vitamin I-Headlamp-MSR repair kit-multitool-matches
1/2 length of Closed cell pad

I'll change some items as temperatures dictate.