Search under way as 3 fall from Mt. Hood

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DougPaul said:
I actually meant my question in a different way.

You had said that you had trained your dog to come and help you if you went down. As I read it, it occurred to me that, while a dog's company might have been comforting and warming (allowing me to survive longer), what I really needed was rescue. So I was wondering if the dog could be trained to leave me and search out human help for me, perhaps upon command. (Yes, I remember the incident with the fallen runner out west.)

Doug

Yes, it could be done. To be reliable when you needed it would require lots of work and continuous maintenance training. The real problem would be the reaction from the human recipients of the alert. As we see here frequently, not all backcountry types would take kindly to a dog barking at them, much less follow the dog. In the injured runner case, the dog happened to encounter her already-mobilized rescuers.
 
sardog1 said:
To be reliable when you needed it would require lots of work and continuous maintenance training.

That would be a tough one to train.

Also consider that unless it were known that human(s) were out there requiring rescue, most folks would not grasp the significance of the dog. Perhaps if you were coherent enough to attach a note to the dog's collar?
 
lx93 said:
some SAR dogs are fitted with climbing harnesses for work near crevasses, rapelling, and lowering from helicopters.-

Is there such a thing as "canine crampons"?

Only the natural ones that work just fine, which is why I never trim my dog's nails. (Take a look at a wolf's or coyote's foot sometime to see what natural nails should look like.)

Mushers and others will use booties, but that involves a tradeoff between foot protection and loss of control. A dog has toes, claws, and pads that work as a unit to enable it to move quickly and safely. A bootie gets in the way of the design concept.
 
Dugan said:
That would be a tough one to train.

Also consider that unless it were known that human(s) were out there requiring rescue, most folks would not grasp the significance of the dog. Perhaps if you were coherent enough to attach a note to the dog's collar?

I've written a training scenario which I've sent to Dugan's owner by PM. If you would also like a copy, send me a PM.
 
bubba said:
Magnitude certainly plays a role in the media's coverage. This is now the second or third Mt. Hood S&R that has made the national news in the last few months -- CNN, Fox and networks giving coverage. Seems that getting lost in the Whites is just regional stuff.

Is this because the danger to life and S&R is that much more on a technical mtn?? I don't really see it that way.

These are the essential elements to getting a media circus started at a SAR mission:

1. Another TV station is already covering it.
2. A child is missing.
3. If not a child, then someone who lives in a nearby major media market. (And especially if it's that rarest of birds, someone who's a player in the media market . . . )
4. The weather is good enough for helicopters to be swooping in and out. Doesn't have to be TV helicopters, but that helps a lot as well. Even better is if the TV helicopters are relatively free to fly over the area. (I'm not disparaging their usefulness in spotting missing folks, but sometimes things go past competitive and into counterproductive, even hazardous, with the air traffic.)
5. You can film standups with "The Mountain" in the background.
6. It's snowing.

Of all of these, number one is by far the best predictor of whether the circus comes to town. By far.

So, Hood is tailor-made for this stuff, except you don't typically have as many children as climbers involved. The one major exception to the exception was when [EDIT] seven students and a couple adults perished there back in the late 80's.

The public has no idea how many SAR missions go unnoticed because the incident commanders decide that involving the media may not be useful. The media can be extremely useful in getting the word out, and they can also get in the way. The good managers know when to use them and how to manage their presence.
 
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sardog1 said:
A dog has toes, claws, and pads that work as a unit to enable it to move quickly and safely.

Dog paws are an amazing tool. The texture of the pads themselves provide traction. Hold your dog's paw, and lightly run your finger down the length of a pad (any pad except dew claw) from front to rear of pad. Notice it feels smooth. Now try it the other way, notice how it feels rough?

Having nursed a dog through losing skin off pads, it's really interesting to see it grow back. The new skin feels soft, thin, and smooth in all directions. As the skin ages, it gets thicker and tougher. Finally, the texture comes back.

sardog1 said:
I've written a training scenario which I've sent to Dugan's owner...

I've read it, and am digesting it. Never having trained a dog for any kind of rescue, it's new territory for me.
 
From the first reports I read, the 3 of them were roped up with the dog and when the leader fell, the other two couldn't arrest in time and all four went over an edge and down the slope. The other rope team saw them fall and went after them. They had a local beacon and a cel phone that they used to call rescue. After that, it was just a matter of getting them down.

I still don't get the deal with the dog. I love dogs, but wouldn't want an extra 80 lbs roped up with me knowing that if I fell, he (or she) would get pulled off with me. I understand the idea of keeping warm, etc., but climbing? Hmmm.
 
lx93 said:
My guess is that part of it is that dogs & owners have a bond which makes multi-day separations painful.

I'll own up to the fact that my separation anxiety is probably worse than my dog's! With that said, I would not knowingly place my dog in a risky situation because I couldn't bear to leave him behind.
 
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I just read on msn.com that the locals out there are tired of paying for the rescue of "outsiders" trying to climb this mountain during the winter. They say that they should pay for their own rescue. Only experience climbers (and expert I might add)should attempt this mountain in the winter.
 
Adk_dib said:
I just read on msn.com that the locals out there are tired of paying for the rescue of "outsiders" trying to climb this mountain during the winter. They say that they should pay for their own rescue. Only experience climbers (and expert I might add)should attempt this mountain in the winter.
This comes up every time a BC rescue hits the news...

The AAC did a study--only 3% of the overall SAR cost goes to these technical rescues. (It is on their website.) Far more goes to little kid wanders away from campground-like scenarios. How about charging them... :mad:

These areas often have tourism as a part (most likely >3%) of the local economy--seems to me that they happily take our money...

Doug
 
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TomD said:
From the first reports I read, the 3 of them were roped up with the dog and when the leader fell, the other two couldn't arrest in time and all four went over an edge and down the slope. The other rope team saw them fall and went after them. They had a local beacon and a cel phone that they used to call rescue. After that, it was just a matter of getting them down.

I still don't get the deal with the dog. I love dogs, but wouldn't want an extra 80 lbs roped up with me knowing that if I fell, he (or she) would get pulled off with me. I understand the idea of keeping warm, etc., but climbing? Hmmm.

TomD's first paragraph is exactly the way the four humans described the event on the Today Show this morning; Velvet the wonderdog was on stage also. The three humans credited Velvet for keeping them all warm, by taking turns lying one each humans legs, as described above.

The normal route on the south side of Hood is not very technical (some climbers rope up, many do not), unless you get lost and fall off a ledge in a white out, as did the leader, or fall into the bergshrund at the base of the gully, as happened to a large party a few years ago, which led to a helicopter crash and multiple fatalities in the rescue.

Granted, without opposable thumbs, dogs cannot belay, hold a leader fall, or help much in a crevasse rescue, but the two women on the rope were not strong enough to hold their leader's fall either, so all three (two humans and the dog) were pulled over the ledge by their leader. Some times it is better not to be roped up, whether human or canine!
 
I didn't pay as much attention to this rescue as most others. Can anyone tell me why this was a rescue? Didn't these people walk down? Why didn't they just walk out? Why did they need all the help?

Keith
 
Keith, Here is a pretty detailed story from the Oregonian website
http://tinyurl.com/2ugqvv

As I understand it, they were banged up, tired, wet and cold. Shelter was a ways away and the storm was still a factor, so the rescuers got to them and loaded them into a SnoCat to take them down the last part of the hill.

I also read that the rescue was called in originally by the other rope team that saw the four go over the ledge. There were, by the account, five of them (including the dog) on the one rope team, but the highest one wasn't tied in. When the fall happened, he was grabbed by one of the other team and let go of the rope before he got pulled over with them.
 
SAR-EMT40 said:
I didn't pay as much attention to this rescue as most others. Can anyone tell me why this was a rescue? Didn't these people walk down? Why didn't they just walk out? Why did they need all the help?

Keith
I've been following this story with considerable interest, here's what I've gathered...

The folks who fell over the ledge had some injuries--one woman suffered a concussion and was bleeding quite a bit. They were far off course and had no way to navigate back to Timberline. The details are a little unclear (a lot unclear, I think) but it seems the other 5 had the GPS and could make it back to the lodge on their own. The 3 that fell couldn't get back up the canyon wall and walk out to the lodge. They spent the night in nasty weather and were cold and wet by the time rescue came. I'm not sure why they were underequipped to spend the night since they had planned this trip as an overnight anyways. I assume they were just so lost they couldn't find a route out on their own. In whiteout conditions with no GPS they were better off staying put until someone could show them the route. They walked out to the closest sno-park with the SAR folks and then hopped a ride on a snocat back to the lodge.

Having just been caught in a whiteout on Mt. Hood myself there are several pieces of this story that just don't make sense to me, but I guess that is due to the media getting things wrong. This event has fueled more talk around here about PLB's/MLU's (whatever), there is a bill being tossed around requiring all climbers on Mt. Hood to carry them above 10,000 ft.

But that opens up an entirely different can of worms... (I won't even mention the dog :eek: :))

Seems as if the media has dug their heels in to mountaineering news this year. Being a fringe activity appreciated only by a minute fraction of the population, stuff is getting misrepresented, blown out of proportion and sensationalized. If anything, maybe all the bad news will make people think twice about heading up there and carrying more emergency gear in their packs. I just hope this foolish law isn't passed.
 
There are too many technical details missing for me to process all of this - the leader wasn't tied in and a dog was?

I also do not understand how a dog was part of the trip. I'd love to have my best friend with me on all my trips, but I guess I just wouldn't feel ok with being tied in to someone (two or four legged) that wouldn't be able to understand roped crevasse travel techniques - I'm just curious as to how much slack was there between the climbers at the time of the fall. I would feel horrible if I took my pet on something like that and cost him his life (he would have less consent and more trust in me than any partners would).

Anyway, glad they all made it back safe.
 
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good pic of hood and the route up the south side - you can see the palmer skilift to the left
http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/99739.jpg


- I know they have handouts at the lodge about the right bearing to take and all that - but my guess is that is easier said then done in crap weather - I now know of at least 5 people(that I know personally) who knew their sh*t that got cuaght up there. I had a bluebird summer day - so it doesn't compare.


I don't recall any cliffs or severe drop offs until about 10K at the devils kitchen and then the hogsback -

jess - maybe you can shed some light on that - not saying they aren't there, I just don't recall any.

also - when I was researching to route before I did it, I read somewhere that dogs were common on the summit - the last part of hood is quite steep - I guess its possible, but I can't see how a dog could get up that - but I am not a canine expert so...

yes - that would suck if they requires you bring a locator with you - they are questionable anyway in regards to working from what I understand.
 
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So a friend of mine forwarded me an email from one of the climbers who was up on Hood in this story. Cleared up a few details.

They were only using ropes because of low visibility, not terrain--to keep track of the 8 people on the mountain. That explains why one guy on the first team didn't go over the ledge with the others. He wasn't tied in, just using the rope so he didn't lose contact with his team. Very understandable.

About the dog--apparently she had been on Hood before, up to Illumination Saddle, and the owner thought it was a good idea to bring her. Hood isn't a technical mountain until the very top, I can see having a dog up there but not sure how well the pooch would do climbing up those ice chutes.

Giggy, they ended up going over a ledge in the White River Canyon. They overshot the Palmer and ended up way off course. My guess is the GPS stayed in someone's pack rather than being used. As for where the ledge was, I've never been out that way so I can't say for sure. When we were wandering around Zigzag (other side of the Palmer) a couple weeks ago, there were no steep sections or abrupt drops.

And apparently the group of five was picked up by SAR and escorted out by SnoCat as well. I had thought they walked out on their own. The next day, the search team was able to locate the other group and walk them out too.

I'd love to hear a firsthand account from one of the three that fell.
 
I would love to see on a map where they fell. The highest I can see any "canyon" for the White River is up around 6600' here (6600)

But early reports said they fell up at 9300'. Maybe here (9300).

So I'm thinking they drifted to the left and fell somewhere below Steel Cliff - which looks pretty damn steep.

Maybe here:

June_19_1001_summit_2.sized.jpg


(Photo taken in June, so there's lots of bare rock which would be under mucho snow at this time of year.)
 
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