Self Arrest theory ve practice

[Bob]

from what I remember, they were not placing gear, it was just a steep snowclimb above a gaping bergshrund. When we were there the year before we made the decision to go unroped because of falling rocks- we figured faster was safer...
I think CBCBD called it right; to practice with someone unexpectedly pulling you off your feet, I think this is what set off that chain reaction.

 

[cbcbd]

I am currently reading Deep Survival in which an accident on Mt. Hood is examined. One of the key elements of the accident seems to have been risky decisions that were at least partly based on team members false assumtions on the ability to self arrest. A person fell & was not able to arrest ultimately going too far & too fast for anyone else on the rope to hold the fall...sure makes me think twice about the little bit of practice that I have done!

The Book
http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Survival...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237481634&sr=1-1

The Fall
http://www.i-world.net/oma/news/accidents/2002-05-30-hood.html

I guess I get #100 (maybe).

Interesting account of the fall on Hood. On hard surfaces, self arrest may not work, even if you are skilled and practiced. This may have been less of a self arrest issue, and more of a "gear judgment" issue. If there was truly hard ice, or very hard packed snow, teams needed to recognize that they shouldn't rely on self arrest. In that case, they should either have had gear on the line (screws, or hammered in pickets, depending on conditions), or if they chose

I agree with TCD and this is what I was eluding to on my earlier post in this thread. I read an excellent article in TIME (?) from 2002 on the Hood incident. For some reason the facts I remember from that article vary slightly from the link above (and the account on the helicopter incident was a lot less forgiving regarding the pilot). But what I basically took from it is that a member of a rope team traveling in steep and icy terrain stumbled. From my recollection of the article, some members of that rope team were fairly inexperienced with crampon use. TCD is spot on with the recommendation of protection but again I will say that, IMO, the #1 skill you should be practicing is not just self-arresting, since there are many cases where the classic self-arrest will do you no good - ie. Hood '02 incident

 

[Chip]

I know many here are not only familiar with Chouinard's "Climbing Ice", but can actually quote passages from memory...BUT...I really urge ANYONE who is even REMOTELY interested in winter travel to buy a copy, even a cheap used one. It is great reading, beautiful photography and nearly every sentence offers some winter travel wisdom. This book is not (just) about vertical ice. The section on self arrest is short and sweet. These guys basically fall into the "Just never fall" school of climbing. Having said that, the techniques outlined will go a long way towards making any form of winter travel safer.

 

[cbcbd]

...to buy a copy, even a cheap used one.

Lol, I'm not sure if there are any copies out there that aren't cheap and used
My copy is a little yellow and smells like cigarettes - A real journey back into the 70s!

 

[Chip]

Lol, I'm not sure if there are any copies out there that aren't cheap and used
My copy is a little yellow and smells like cigarettes - A real journey back into the 70s!

Hey, how about Chouinards daughter ? They had to throw that pic in !

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Who needs a course; just study the photo in the 19 March 2009 New York Times.

http://blog.christopherpercycollier.com/archives/2009/03/collier-makes-2-1.html

 

[Chip]

(NOTE: This is an old thread and the article below is related.)

Interesting article on self arresting with crampons from The Alpine Institute.

Not saying one way or the other, but there's obviously varied opinions out there. I agree stopping is the most important thing.

 

[Craig]

I suspect the article’s audience was guides and experienced mountaineers. I can’t imagine a guide teaching a student or client the “third school of thought”.

The third school of thought is that you should always kick your toes into the snow, regardless of whether or not you are wearing crampons. The theory here is that stopping is the most important thing and that it's worth the risk of getting flipped over or injuring your ankles to stop.

Most AAI guides teach a combination of the second and third schools of thought. Programs that teach the first concept are definitely in the minority these days. The number one focus of any self-arrest activity is to stop a slide and most of the time, that means using your feet as part of the arresting system.

 

[erugs]

I suspect the article’s audience was guides and experienced mountaineers. I can’t imagine a guide teaching a student or client the “third school of thought”.

Guides on Rainier taught us the "third school of thought." And our guides this summer didn't correct us when we did so during our Shasta seminar. The main thing that was stressed on Shasta this summer was keeping sharp ends of the axe away from soft parts of ourselves.

 

[Chip]

I can’t imagine a guide teaching a student or client the “third school of thought”.

I think that's exactly what's happening, with caveats;

I do want to make sure that everyone understands that we're not proponents of always kicking your feet in no matter what. I think it's better to look at it from the "it depends" perspective.

If (and that's a big "if")you can arrest immediately before any speed is accrued, then getting your feet in might be better. But clearly if you've gained any momentum at all, you absolutely have to keep your feet up.

 

[Craig]

Wow, I stand corrected.

Chip you did Rainier recently didn't you? Was you taught to evaluate terrain conditions and make a decision “on the fly” as to whether it's better to use your crampons for arrest if you fell?

If you are on hard, solid ice or neve, then it's usually better to kick your feet up into the air. If you are on semi-solid terrain with occasional harder sections, then it's probably better to kick your toes in. This "it depends" approach isn't what most people want to hear. They want to hear a black and white answer; in part because a black and white answer is easier to remember in the heat of the moment.

Strategical thinking when moving in the mountains, in any kind of terrain, should always be composed of two questions. What is is the likelhood of a fall? And, what are the consequences of a fall? If these questions are always at the forefront of your thinking, then a black-and-white answer may not be so important. If you are constantly strategizing what you'll do in the event of a fall, then it is likely that you will react appropriately when the right skill is needed.

 

[kaseri]

True story....

March 2007 myself and a few partners climbed Mt. Washington via Lion Head winter route. While on the summit we could see a storm starting to come in from the south. We decided to descend to Lion Head as quickly and safely as possible. We arrived at the top of Lion Head very quickly where we all gave the "thumbs up" sign to each other as we knew that reaching this spot meant there was no real chance of being stuck above timberline in a whiteout. Just as our party was about to descend the lee side of Lion Head a wind gust in excess of 100 mph picked me up off my feet and threw me toward Tuckerman Ravine. I was gaining speed fast, performed a self-arrest and managed to stop myself. I climbed back up to my partners and we descended without further issues.

It's one thing to know what to do and another to have it be second nature. If self-arrest techniques were not second nature to me I'm sure I would have been seriously injured or killed on that day. I see lots of people on steep terrain every winter without the proper gear or the knowledge on how to use it. It amazes me that more people aren't seriously injured or killed in the Whites each winter.

 

[Chip]

Wow, I stand corrected.

Chip you did Rainier recently didn't you? Was you taught to evaluate terrain conditions and make a decision “on the fly” as to whether it's better to use your crampons for arrest if you fell?

Not really. We practiced self arrest without crampons, but "kick your feet" (to dig in the toes) was definately pounded into us, and so by default, as we'd be traveling in crampons, they may have been teaching us the third technique without letting on. Sneaky *******s ! Also, traveling with the axe pointy end pointing away (even though it requires spinning it 180 degrees to use) was taught.

Someone more experienced will say it's always safer and better not to fall in the first place, which is true. You'd still need to self arrest if your rope partner fell or broke through into a crevasse, though, even if you never fell yourself. In that case you'd absolutely use your toes and feet as fast as possible.

 

[Craig]

I was taught the 2nd school of thought:

The second school of thought is that you should kick your toes into the snow to help arrest the fall. In this school of thought, your toes should go in immediately to provide more resistance to the slide. However, this school also believes that you should only do this if you are not wearing crampons. This school believes that you should not kick your toes in if you are wearing crampons for fear of injury or flipping over.

I must be a freak'n dinosaur.

I'm not saying I don't agree with the premise of the 3rd school of thought, I do. If you''re good enough to be able to evaluate the conditions and be able to adjust you reactions according than that’s great.

To be teaching folks to kick with crampons without consideration of the snow conditions is a different story.

Probability and statistic I guess. The statistics must demonstrate that the probability of catching a crampon is low in relation to the potential benefit? I don't know.

Interesting though.

 

[DougPaul]

I was taught the 2nd school of thought:

Me too.

I must be a freak'n dinosaur.

Me too...

My standard crampons are Chouinard rigids with aggressive front points (ice climbing crampons). The front points will catch in anything other than powder.

Doug

 

[Aviarome]

Not really. We practiced self arrest without crampons, but "kick your feet" (to dig in the toes) was definately pounded into us, and so by default, as we'd be traveling in crampons, they may have been teaching us the third technique without letting on. Sneaky *******s ! Also, traveling with the axe pointy end pointing away (even though it requires spinning it 180 degrees to use) was taught.

That's kind of interesting. So you were taught to carry the axe in the self-belay position? I think if you are not truly using the axe in self-belay/piolet, ie plunging the axe into steep snow to climb, then it would be better to keep the axe in the self-arrest position. I think the danger is that the faster you are falling, the harder to self arrest. Thus, best to have the axe in the self-arrest position to begin with.

I also was taught to kick my toes in, albeit, I wasn't wearing crampons. But in theory, you want three points for the best stability, the ice ax pick/shoulder, and your two feet. It also becomes important if by chance you lost your ice ax. . . self arresting with cupped hands/arms and digging your toes in. In this method, digging your feet in is very important as it's hard to really dig in with your hands.

But like you quoted in the AAI comments, nothing is ever black and white.

Aviarome

 

[erugs]

! Also, traveling with the axe pointy end pointing away (even though it requires spinning it 180 degrees to use) was taught.

I'm a little confused. Say you're slabbing slope, heading up the left side. Your ice axe is in your right hand (upslope), with the adze pointing forward (A is for Adze). You slip. You pull your axe up to your right shoulder, turn your face so you are looking downhill, grasp toward the tip of the axe in your left hand and pull up. Smooth move. No spinning is involved. Right?

 

[DrJJFate]

I'm a little confused. Say you're slabbing slope, heading up the left side. Your ice axe is in your right hand (upslope), with the adze pointing forward (A is for Adze). You slip. You pull your axe up to your right shoulder, turn your face so you are looking downhill, grasp toward the tip of the axe in your left hand and pull up. Smooth move. No spinning is involved. Right?

In your scenario, as you are pulling the axe up to your right shoulder, you would be rotating your right wrist counter-clockwise to rotate the head of the axe. Therefore, the adze would ultimately end up adjacent to your shoulder (with your gloved hand on it). You then have leverage to drive the pick into the ice/hill.

 

[Bob]

The absolute best method

If you slip and start sliding, you should self arrest.