Self Arrest theory ve practice

[BlackBuffalo]

Good thread. My hike up Monadnock on Fri. made me consider what else I should have on hand (axe, skills) with my crampons. Pure ice uphill is still unsafe territory for me. That's one reason I headed down just beneath the summit.
DaveG

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Often and idealy, backcountry self arrests happen very quickly. Your feet go out, you go down with adze pointing to the snow, and bang, you have stopped. Practicing this kind of self arrest with crampons is pretty safe.

Although I think that it is best to have the adze pointing forward, I do not think that it is a good idea to try sticking the adze in the snow, as even right away at a slow speed the stuck adze could rip the axe out of your hands. I think that one should rotate the axe with the hand behind the adz and slowly drive the pick into the snow, using the other hand to guide the bottom of the axe shaft as you fall on top of the ax to weight the pick into the snow. Hard to describe in words, so better to watch the videos and/or take a course.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Hey Lawn Sale,

In your Wildcat trail conditions you wrote:

An ice axe (mountaineering) would have been very helpful.

for the climb up Wildcat E. In what way would it have been helpful?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[giggy]

climbed willeys slide yesterday morning and saw a group down low on the slide set up a top rope and then practice self arresting that way - we were pretty high on the slide when they came and didn't really see much more detail.

 

[DougPaul]

An ice axe (mountaineering) would have been very helpful.

for the climb up Wildcat E. In what way would it have been helpful?

An axe is generally more useful than poles on steep snow and many places where you may slide if you fall. (This includes using the axe to prevent the fall as well as self-arrest.)

See the prior thread
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15140 for more info. Read particularly the descriptions of piolet canne and piolet manche in post #21.

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

An axe is generally more useful than poles on steep snow and many places where you may slide if you fall. (This includes using the axe to prevent the fall as well as self-arrest.)

See the prior thread
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15140 for more info. Read particularly the descriptions of piolet canne and piolet manche in post #21.

Doug

I've read that. I wish to know what particular use the axe would have been put to by Lawn Sale in this particular situation. I could have PM'd him but perhaps others would like to hear his personal experience of this situation as well.

Tim
(as always, I'm interested in the personal experience here...)

 

[Reekee]

ADK self arrest.

The North face of Gothics, The Eagle slides on Giant, and the Colden Slide upon exiting the Trapp Dike are areas that this skill is needed. All classic winter routes.

 

[leaf]

climbed willeys slide yesterday morning and saw a group down low on the slide set up a top rope and then practice self arresting that way - we were pretty high on the slide when they came and didn't really see much more detail.

yeah.. we threw some belay devices at them from above to make it more challenging for them. like a real-life scenario.

The North face of Gothics, The Eagle slides on Giant, and the Colden Slide upon exiting the Trapp Dike are areas that this skill is needed. All classic winter routes.

whoa, north face of gothics? pm me if you are ever going to do -that- again!

 

[nartreb]

I've read that. I wish to know what particular use the axe would have been put to by Lawn Sale in this particular situation. I could have PM'd him but perhaps others would like to hear his personal experience of this situation as well.

Tim
(as always, I'm interested in the personal experience here...)

Well, there's this spot. Also, the shoulder above here requires a short traverse or two of a tilted slab with plenty of air beneath.

 

[giggy]

the ice axe is very useful if you want to play air guitar on a climb - I have seen cbcbd do this and its essential on some climbs. the axe looks better than the skipole.

 

[hikes-with-him]

Ok...just reading this thread as part of my hiking education.

There is mention, several times, of a weekend course in April on Tuckerman's (I think) about crampons, ice axes and self arresting, etc.

I checked the site...and couldn't find it. Any suggestions?

We are thinking that we need a "hands on" ("feet on"?) course to help us hike safer in the winter.

Thanks.

 

[David Metsky]

http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/explorations/multiday/winter-mountaineering.cfm

http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/explorations/multiday/mountaineering-ice-school.cfm

Unfortunately, both courses aren't offered again this season. You can work directly with IME or Chauvin Guides to organize instruction.

 

[hikes-with-him]

IME?

How do you contact these people/organizations?

 

[Chip]

IME?

How do you contact these people/organizations?

http://www.ime-usa.com/

google "EMS Climb" also, they have schools and courses and might customize an outing.

 

[hikes-with-him]

Awesome!!

Thanks...will check these out

 

[kevinmac]

The AMC New Hampshire Chapter does have a Glacier Travel Mountaineering Workshop on April 11, 18 and 19 for only $25.00 per day. It does cover self arrest.
The cost is significantly cheaper than the programs run by AMC at their destinations or the private groups as mentioned in the previous posts because AMC chapter events are run by volunteers.

Here is a link for a partial description of the program:
http://amc-nh.org/calendar/activities.php?type=A&id=7&category1=Mountaineering

The full description is on page 42 of the April AMC Outdoors magazine.
There is also an avalanche awareness program March 21-22.

If you are not a member and don't get the magazine, send me a pm and I can fax it to you

 

[DougPaul]

How do you contact these people/organizations?

http://chauvinguides.com/

Doug

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

These guys are also top notch. Let's push this excellent thread over 100 posts.

http://www.mountainguidesalliance.com/guides.cfm

 

[LarryB]

I am currently reading Deep Survival in which an accident on Mt. Hood is examined. One of the key elements of the accident seems to have been risky decisions that were at least partly based on team members false assumtions on the ability to self arrest. A person fell & was not able to arrest ultimately going too far & too fast for anyone else on the rope to hold the fall...sure makes me think twice about the little bit of practice that I have done!

The Book
http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Survival...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237481634&sr=1-1

The Fall
http://www.i-world.net/oma/news/accidents/2002-05-30-hood.html

 

[TCD]

I guess I get #100 (maybe).

Interesting account of the fall on Hood. On hard surfaces, self arrest may not work, even if you are skilled and practiced. This may have been less of a self arrest issue, and more of a "gear judgment" issue. If there was truly hard ice, or very hard packed snow, teams needed to recognize that they shouldn't rely on self arrest. In that case, they should either have had gear on the line (screws, or hammered in pickets, depending on conditions), or if they chose not to use gear, they should have recognized that they were each solo climbing, and they should have unroped.

Sad story. Even though it's old, I hadn't seen those details before.

TCD