Self Arrest theory ve practice

[Woody]

I've practiced self-arrest on a local sledding hill. Lots of fun and you will probably end up doing some teaching as well!

 

[NewHampshire]

Chip makes excellent points. Proper axe technique takes practice.

Question: where in New England are the best spots to practice?
Looking for steep, long snowfields with relatively benign landings [type 1], or that can easily be securely belayed from solid (idiot-proof) anchors [type 2].

Tuckerman bowl [type 1], where else? Any ski areas that don't mind having their slopes torn up, maybe just before a scheduled resurfacing?

I think I know of a pretty good place. At the parking lot just off to the left of the Tram parking lot at Cannon where you can park to access the Kinsman Ridge Trail. If you look to the right of where the trail starts up you will see a little, steep face that we were using last year as a swiss bob run. It has a drop of about 30 to 40 feet IIRC. If we pack it down with snow shoes (and/or swiss bobs ) it could make for a pretty good run.

Unlike Tim I own an Ice Axe. But like him I will not use it until I know what I am doing. And I too reall can't and don't want to pay a lot of money for a weekend mountaineering course (all just to learn the one thing I want which is self arrest). Between Christmas, a Wilderness First Aid course to pay for and another fairly large purchase coming up in the next few months I just can't dish out big dough.

So Tim, if ya want to get together we could do some practice using the video someone linked by those British mountaineers as a basis. Since we are pretty much the same height my Ice axe should be perfect for both of us to use/practice with. We can just practice sans crampons so as to minimize potential injury.

And maybe we could find a place closer to home so we don't have to drive 2 hours or so just to spend the day practicing self arrest.

Brian

 

[bikehikeskifish]

So Tim, if ya want to get together we could do some practice using the video someone linked by those British mountaineers as a basis. Since we are pretty much the same height my Ice axe should be perfect for both of us to use/practice with. We can just practice sans crampons so as to minimize potential injury.

And maybe we could find a place closer to home so we don't have to drive 2 hours or so just to spend the day practicing self arrest.

We can investigate that. Rock Rimmon? Uncanoonuc? A sledding hill somewhere? Anyone else in the Manchvegas area??

Tim

 

[giggy]

its a good idea to get proper instruction on not just self arrest, but also the basic fundamentals of climbing - self belay with axe, plunge step, down climbing - so your hopefully don't have to use the self arrest. If your sliding and have to use the self -arrest, something already went wrong. Maybe it was something you could have controlled and maybe not. But if you know the fundamentals of mountaineering, then maybe the fall doesn't happen.

I suggest spend the money and get taught right. 25 bucks and a weekend away from peakbagging isn't too much to sacrifice. (amc weekend)

better yet, get a group and have IME or another guide take a few of you out - my guess is it would be about 100 bucks a person. You don't need to know how to dress, hydrate, etc - They will take you out on steep terrain and teach you the right way to do things. Its really amazing what they can teach you in one day. After that day, you take what your learned and then practice.

If you're not willing to sacrifice some money and time, then best to stick to normal trails. you fall on valley way, likely not a big deal, you fall on lions head winter route or tuckerman headwall in winter, your getting hurt or killed. worth the $$

all I am saying, is self-arrest is just one part of the wonderful world of mountaineering.

just saying.

 

[WinterWarlock]

I suggest spend the money and get taught right. 25 bucks and a weekend away from peakbagging isn't too much to sacrifice. (amc weekend)

better yet, get a group and have IME or another guide take a few of you out - my guess is it would be about 100 bucks a person. You don't need to know how to dress, hydrate, etc - They will take you out on steep terrain and teach you the right way to do things. Its really amazing what they can teach you in one day. After that day, you take what your learned and then practice.

If you're not willing to sacrifice some money and time, then best to stick to normal trails. you fall on valley way, likely not a big deal, you fall on lions head winter route or tuckerman headwall in winter, your getting hurt or killed. worth the $$

all I am saying, is self-arrest is just one part of the wonderful world of mountaineering.

Giggy - I had problems with the AMC site yesterday - so if you have a link to such a course that's be great.

Thanks.

 

[J.Dub]

Most people should have at least done the otter slide down the hill with the controlled roll onto the axe. That's a bare-bones minimum. I doubt many have practiced head first and backwards while being dragged by your buddy into a crevasse or over a ledge. Or how to manage crampons in a slide.

Agree with the need to practice, practice, practice -- esp. the head-first and backwards variations -- but I've always read and been told not to wear the poons when practicing, to avoid those pesky snapped ankles. What're others' thoughts here?

Also agree with the other responses that a quick-but-ugly (or quick butt ugly, when I do them ) arrest is preferrable over the slower-but-textbook-perfect arrest, due to the quick acceleration on steep slopes.

Practicing with a full winter pack is something I've not done yet, but definitely will. That extra fiddy pounds will make the acceleration quicker and getting into the correct position that much harder. Good call there.

Maybe it's just my partners, but nobody seems willing to jump into the crevasse to help me practice glacier travel self-arrest. Chip, are you volunteering...?

 

[Jeff]

No need for 2 hour approaches to practice (ie. huntington, great gulf), just find a hill.

in order for self arrest to save you big factors are the type of snow/ice you're on. If you're on hard neve or ice you'd better damn well arrest fast. Once you pick up too much speed, cash in the life insurance policy or get ready for medical bills.

I spend more time practicing not to fall - i.e. footwork, ice climbing, etc. Many people fall when they get tired. Get fit and don't get tired so easily. I always advocate these peripheral approaches.

 

[MichaelJ]

Giggy - I had problems with the AMC site yesterday - so if you have a link to such a course that's be great.

Thanks.

2-day classes at Pinkham
3-day classes at Pinkham includes camping one night
Note "Instruction-only prices available upon request."

 

[Lawn Sale]

Chip makes excellent points. Proper axe technique takes practice.

Question: where in New England are the best spots to practice?
Looking for steep, long snowfields with relatively benign landings [type 1], or that can easily be securely belayed from solid (idiot-proof) anchors [type 2].

Tuckerman bowl [type 1], where else? Any ski areas that don't mind having their slopes torn up, maybe just before a scheduled resurfacing?

Willey's Slide is where I have practiced in the past, which is nice because I'm already there doing some climbing. While the runout on the bottom can be a little intimidating, it's not bad if you don't start from the top and you'll stop in plenty of time. It's also close to the highway, but can be busy during the 'season'.

Guilty! I know I don't practice enough, and now that I think about it, I have never had my hiking pack on while practicing.

I'd be in for getting a group together with IME since I have never had formal training, just what I've read and been shown by other climbers. I've only fallen once, brittle ice let go under my crampons and I only had one axe planted, and there isn't much self belay on vertical ice. The rope (and my brother) kept me from plunging into the trees, pretty hairy feeling when you're not in control.

 

[WinterWarlock]

Thanks Michael - not quite the $25 Giggy mentioned , but looks like a good program.

I kinda like the IME option better - have to look into it a bit more.

 

[jniehof]

I suggest spend the money and get taught right. 25 bucks and a weekend away from peakbagging isn't too much to sacrifice. (amc weekend)

better yet, get a group and have IME or another guide take a few of you out - my guess is it would be about 100 bucks a person.

Unfortunately the Boston chapter above-treeline workshop fills up really fast every year...I hope to make it in this year, but I'm not sure it's likely.

Chauvin Guides does a 2-day course at $125/person/day (assuming a three-person group.) If anyone's potentially interested in making a group, PM me...I'd want to hike with you first, though

Maybe it's just my partners, but nobody seems willing to jump into the crevasse to help me practice glacier travel self-arrest. Chip, are you volunteering...?

The NH chapter glacier travel program might help with that.

For simple self-arrest practice, I'll probably hit Prospect Hill (Waltham) once there's a snow base (might take awhile.) I'll post then in case any other Boston-area people want to join. (It is, just barely, T-accessible.) Corey Hill might also work, but the runout looks dicey at best.

 

[giggy]

Thanks Michael - not quite the $25 Giggy mentioned , but looks like a good program.

I kinda like the IME option better - have to look into it a bit more.

the amc offers a program in spring for about 25 bucks (10 bucks a day??) at gunstock run by volenteers - they do this every year - but i don't have the details.


all those amc ones (michealj pointed out) do is outsource to the local guides and probably take a cut for themselves, just go to the guides themselves you'll probably get a better deal talking one on one than via AMC. plus, by going to the guides, you can customize - like i said, most people here don't need the hour instruction on what to wear and the importance of water, etc..

 

[WinterWarlock]

the amc offers a program in spring for about 25 bucks (10 bucks a day??) at gunstock run by volenteers - they do this every year - but i don't have the details.

Thanks - and to echo what LawnSale said, I'd be interested in hooking up with an IME day of instruction if something like that comes together.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

iI suggest spend the money and get taught right. 25 bucks and a weekend away from peakbagging isn't too much to sacrifice. (amc weekend)

It isn't the money, or peakbagging that is the blocker (for me.) It's the parental obligation thing. Otherwise I completely agree with getting the professional training. The schedules for these things don't exactly make it easy to go either, if I was suddenly given a chance.

Tim

 

[nartreb]

Prospect Hill (Waltham)

Excellent idea - the north-facing slope with the light poles, by the main entrance (I think this used to be a ski area). Decent slope with a nice flat runout, and there will probably be tobogganers packing it nicely.

 

[DougPaul]

Willey's Slide is where I have practiced in the past, which is nice because I'm already there doing some climbing. While the runout on the bottom can be a little intimidating, it's not bad if you don't start from the top and you'll stop in plenty of time. It's also close to the highway, but can be busy during the 'season'.

Willey's Slide has a very short runout and then throws you into the trees. You also have to catch it when the lower portion is hardpack/crusty snow rather than ice.

Doug

 

[Lawn Sale]

I've never found it a problem as that's where the snow accumulates, and there is plenty of time to stop before the trees, unless you're starting from the top, which would not be a smart idea.

 

[hikingfish]

I refuse to even purchase an ice axe until I know how to actually use it for self arrest. At some point I'd like the opportunity to practice with experienced people. I can't currently "afford" to take a weekend-long mountaineering class.

Tim

I once took a course on "mountaineering" on Mt Washington. Basically, we went in Huntington Ravine for a day in April (I remember that it was during that weekend where everyone goes to Tuckerman to ski) and praticed sliding down the mountain and self-arresting. Just borrow a friend's ice axe and go nuts! It's lots of fun and if anything at that specific period of the year, you can usually self-arrest by simply digging in your mitts into the snow.

Fish

 

[DougPaul]

but I've always read and been told not to wear the poons when practicing, to avoid those pesky snapped ankles. What're others' thoughts here?

Very true.

If you are not wearing crampons, your weight should be on the axe head and your toes. If you are wearing crampons, your weight should be on the axe head and your knees with your feet up in the air. (These are with respect to "self-arrest position"--on your front with the axe head just above your shoulder and the shaft under your shoulder and down to the opposite hip. Hands on the axe head and just above the axe spike. Axe pick pressed in the snow.)

Nice how-to movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM3xLshmNnk

And, of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-arrest

Doug

 

[John H Swanson]

Have you ever actually done a self-arrest using this whippet system? I've not, nor known anyone who has. When I look at one of these in the store I've always been struck with how flimsy they seem, and know how much force is generated within fractions of a second in real life, I've had my doubts about them.

I would be very interested in hearing from someone who's actually used one, even if the self-arrest was only in practice.

I have. I use a single pole with this type of handle in winter. The weigth of the removable "pick" is far less than an ice ax. I don't always bring the pick but frequently do. So when I'm on a slick piece of terrain, I often tell myself, well it would be stupid to bring it and not use it. So a few times I was kick stepping up a slide with crust. My feet began to slide. After several feet, with lots of adeneline flowing, I dropped forward in self arrest postion and I came to a stop. First time was on Friday slide in the Cats. I don't remember the second times.

Of course as with an ice ax, the speed at which you hit the stance will largely influence success or failure. Get any type of speed going and that ax wil just skip across the ice or rip out of your hands. So, when I start to slide in a situation with no safe runout, I respond quickly.

Please understand that the BD handles are a very long way from an ice ax. I think about all the people I see above tree line without ice axes on largely ice encased terrain in a fall=death situation. Heh I was there too. For wahtever reason, these people chose to go there without an ice ax. Would the BD handle work? On ice, I doubt it, but on ice, you would need to be good to get an ice ax to arrest your fall. Glad I didn't have to find out.

A really good place to learn is on a ski slope. You can get a steep run covered in hard pack snow that supports a slide with no rocks and a good runout.