Sleeping in cars allowed at Lafayette Place?

[Sherby]

Hi,

Just saw someone reporting on a FB group that there is a sign saying you can sleep in your car at Lafeyette Place, is this a exception because it's a state park and not a WMNF parking? (The OP might just be wrong).

 

[peakbagger]

I seriously doubt that. I think the "take a picture or it never happened approach" should be applied to the posting. My guess is it would be the opposite given that its adjacent to a paid state campground. There are paid staff for the campground so pretty easy to manage. There are a few paid spots on the north end of Echo Lake but I think the Tram lot is posted no camping.

This RSA seems to cover it

https://www.boondockersbible.com/do...amping-along-highways-and-on-public-property/

 

[Sherby]

I was surprised, but OP added that they saw at least 4 other cars with people sleeping in, I know it doesn't really meaning anything, but it was enough to investigate further.

 

[peakbagger]

I drive by once a week, if I have time I can check it out.

Note during the Covid summers and this year there are many folks with fairly new camper vans (frequently the 100K plus Mercedes Sprinter chassis based models) camping overnight at hiker lots on both state and WMNF lands.Tthe 1/4 mile rule rules out camping at WMNF lots but expect enforcement priority was ultra low on the priority list by both federal and state law enforcement.

Reportedly the BLM and other Federal land managers out west have a lot more issue with homeless folks trying to camp for extended periods on federal land. In general camping at undesignated sites is legal but only for 14 days in a month. After that the campers need to be moved at least 25 miles to another site.

 

[JustJoe]

I was surprised, but OP added that they saw at least 4 other cars with people sleeping in, I know it doesn't really meaning anything, but it was enough to investigate further.

Numerous people, in different FB groups say it's OK to camp at trail-heads. I generally get to trail-heads early. I've on a few occasions, seen people getting out of their vehicles that it was obvious they'd spent the night. It's probably pretty easy to get a away with since the USFS doesn't have the resources to patrol the hundreds of trail-heads in the Whites. I wonder if it's done at all.

 

[Rhody Seth]

I've slept at many of the trailheads in the Whites over the last few years and never had any issues. I've heard of people get roused but as JustJoe said, there's no way for them to monitor them all. As far as Lafayette Place goes, I doubt it's legal but I also doubt you'd get in trouble.

 

[JoshandBaron]

I know a few people who have been cited for it. All were at lots close to district headquarters.

 

[Sherby]

We've all heard stories of law enforcement emptying out Lincoln Woods at night and such, but here we are looking into a hypothetical new situation at Lafayette Place (or just someone making stuff up or not being able to read English correctly, FB OP is from QC).

 

[peakbagger]

Numerous people, in different FB groups say it's OK to camp at trail-heads. I generally get to trail-heads early. I've on a few occasions, seen people getting out of their vehicles that it was obvious they'd spent the night. It's probably pretty easy to get a away with since the USFS doesn't have the resources to patrol the hundreds of trail-heads in the Whites. I wonder if it's done at all.

Nothing personal but Numerous people, in different FB groups say it's OK to camp at trail-heads is not much of a legal justification

Generally, a violation like this rarely gets enforced unless there is an "incident". Over the years when there are rash of car breakins with increased visibility of parking lots, I think overnight camping in the lots had been discouraged to make them easier to patrol. Overnight camping in the Appalachia lot was discouraged for several years by state police who tended to swing into the lot on their night rounds when it was a target for frequent break-ins. John Scarinza, now retired was a Randolph resident and state trooper and no doubt kept an eye out. No doubt Gordon Lowe, the local constable might also have been involved. I think the perception is that someone camping in a shiny new $200K Sprinter is going to be treated better than the occupants of a 30 year old camper on its last legs.

The WMNF on occasion would pay local towns for services on WMNF lands within town boundaries. I think Gorham did it for a while and Coos County Sheriff used to patrol Pinkham B road and Barnes Field (not sure if they still do). Of late I have noticed that the WMNF seems to have abandoned managing overnight camping along the north end of Jefferson Notch Road with numerous sites appearing along the road. They are not official designated primitive camping spots like on Haystack road they are just unenforced spots people use.

Note unless the WMNF has changed the locks they use, many of the gated off areas in the WMNF used standardized Master brand combination locks that could be easily opened with a pick "tool" made out of thin piece of metal or just opened in about 15 minutes by manipulating the dials (see You Tube Lock Picking Lawyer videos). I have seen a few people camping behind these closed gates over the years. I dont expect its a big issue with the WMNF employees unless the folks camping are leaving trash or human waste, but in one case I encountered a camper that had been there for a while with a pretty good pile of trash and toilet consisting of a toilet seat balanced on a couple of saplings nailed to a tree with pile of crap and toilet paper on top of the ground under the seat. That road has grown in a lot so that it would be far more obvious today but there is large spot used by long term campers not very far away that is not gated.

 

[JustJoe]

Nothing personal but Numerous people, in different FB groups say it's OK to camp at trail-heads is not much of a legal justification

I didn't want to ramble so my point my have been lost. I absolutely do not condone this. My FB reference was to the point, that you can't convince the people that say they do they do this with no problems, that they are basically breaking the law. And that just because they are getting away with it, doesn't make it OK. Part of this FB issue can't be fixed by the Admins of the different groups. Provided they even know the rules. If someone posts they do this, that post should be deleted. Yesterday there was a post from a guy who camped on the beach at Fourth Iron Campground. Not only is it posted that the campground is closed till further notice, so is the beach do to a bear problem. And there's no camping on the beach regardless. This person knew that. And not to mention, I'm pretty sure it's less than 1/4 from Rt. 302. His report should never been allowed to be posted. Because of the sheer #'s on FB, now they'll be people illegally camping there.

That's all I have to say about that.

 

[peakbagger]

No camping signs prominently posted in both parking lots. The Lafayette place side has two no camping signs. (one came out blurred so I did not post it)



Of course there is no definition of camping posted so someone getting cited could try to argue the definition. It is also not posted in numerous languages so some non native speaker might argue they did not know as they could not read the sign.

So I declare the thread title bogus unless there is additional backup to support it

 

[BISCUT]

No camping signs prominently posted in both parking lots. The Lafayette place side has two no camping signs. (one came out blurred so I did not post it)

View attachment 6848View attachment 6849

Of course there is no definition of camping posted so someone getting cited could try to argue the definition. It is also not posted in numerous languages so some non native speaker might argue they did not know as they could not read the sign.

So I declare the thread title bogus unless there is additional backup to support it

The definition of "camping" is critical. I can understand the no camping rule due to others' past transgressions. While I don't completely agree I do get it. On the other hand I drive 5-6 hours and simply want to sleep in my truck for an early 5am start. I am not partaking in anything but quietly sleeping away. Seems a little harsh. If my parking permit allows me to park overnight I don't believe I should be automatically excluded from being inside my vehicle with my eyes shut with a blanket and pillow. IMHO reasonableness should be the deciding factor. If I were treating the lot like a Patriots game tailgating then that is a different matter. Or littering, being loud, etc.

 

[Sherby]

No camping signs prominently posted in both parking lots. The Lafayette place side has two no camping signs. (one came out blurred so I did not post it)

Of course there is no definition of camping posted so someone getting cited could try to argue the definition. It is also not posted in numerous languages so some non native speaker might argue they did not know as they could not read the sign.

So I declare the thread title bogus unless there is additional backup to support it

Thank you.

 

[skiguy]

No camping signs prominently posted in both parking lots. The Lafayette place side has two no camping signs. (one came out blurred so I did not post it)

View attachment 6848View attachment 6849

Of course there is no definition of camping posted so someone getting cited could try to argue the definition. It is also not posted in numerous languages so some non native speaker might argue they did not know as they could not read the sign.

So I declare the thread title bogus unless there is additional backup to support it

I don't agree with this line of reasoning. An individual claiming ignorance in this hypothetical situation would really be just ignorant in itself by trying to argue the point when it really is pretty clear what the rule is. Especially the part about a language barrier. I have traveled, climbed and camp all over the world where the common language is not English. It is the individual's responsibility to do their homework to obtain permitting and understanding the rules whether it be in the United States or elsewhere. As far as the definition of camping itself it's pretty clear what it is. Being inside a vehicle does not exclude someone from not technically being camped. Yes, you're not directly on the ground but you are planted for a period of time sleeping and eating. Car Camping is a commonly used term, and we all know what that is. Again, claiming ignorance would just be just some sort of guise. With that said I agree the issue is enforcement. No way are all the trailheads going to be patrolled but the possibility of the more popular trailheads being patrolled is more likely. The trailhead in question from the OP would qualify considering it is along a major State Highway in a very popular area.

 

[jfb]

I've slept in a tent at the Lafayette Place campground a couple of years ago, but I could have slept in my car.

https://newhampshirestateparks.rese...roundDetails.do?contractCode=NH&parkId=270044

One legal option is to park at the Skoocumchuck trailhead and hike 1/4 miles into the woods, then sleep there.

 

[JustJoe]

Being inside a vehicle does not exclude someone from not technically being camped. Yes, you're not directly on the ground but you are planted for a period of time sleeping and eating. Car Camping is a commonly used term, and we all know what that is.

The OP on FB was probably fishing. The question has been coming up constantly in the past couple of years. People are just looking for others to tell them it's OK. And trust me, dozens say it is. Most common response, "I do it all the time and have never had a problem." As I said above, I always arrive early at trail-heads and am seeing this pretty much everywhere, all the time. Tuesday the 5th I pulled into the Piper Trail lot to see 3 vehicles there. All 3 were from distant states, or provinces that start with Q. In other words, long drives. All 3 were covered in dew, so were there overnight. Of the 3, I'm positive, heard them, had people inside. Not sure about the 3rd. That person may have camped at Penacook Shelter. But I'd be willing to bet, someone was sleeping in that one as well, pickup truck with a topper.

When the question comes up, anywhere, I refer to this. Which pretty much covers any question here. After the intro., the very first rule.

It does boil done to, IMO, people don't consider sleeping in there's vehicles, camping. One of the vehicles I saw in the Piper lot, from the Q place, was a VW EuroVan Camper. Probably the language barrier thing in that case.

 

[sierra]

I've slept at many trailheads and the parking lot at Pinkham notch as well. Had a 3 inch foam pad in the bed of my pickup, its really nice to drop the tailgate, make some coffee then start hiking. I've never been ticketed or told to leave, not once. Occasionally, I will use campgrounds as well, depends on my schedule. If I'm driving up late at night and hiking the next day, paying 30 bucks or more to park in a campground makes no sense to me at all. It's national Forest land and my taxes pay for it, so the legality of it really doesn't phase me. I have car camped in CA, CO as well, the only place I have been told to leave is Yosemite, they are very strict there and the Rangers are everywhere. CO is heaven on earth, you can car camp anywhere you want.

 

[DayTrip]

As someone alluded to earlier camping and sleeping in your car to me are different. Simply laying in your car and having no impact on the area seems harmless and I'd think would be fine. Maybe you use the outhouse or throw something in the trash but I do that anyway when I arrive early AM at a trailhead after driving up from CT so what's the difference. Paying my parking fee for the day either way.

Camping on the other hand to me involves a tent or shelter leaving an imprint, trampling the ground walking around in a small area, maybe chairs, cooking, generating trash, etc. While this could also be responsibly done I suspect most people who do this sort of camping are making their impact on the area, thus it is prohibited. I think at the point you're creating a physical presence outside your vehicle I understand wanting to regulate it.

 

[maineguy]

This is another rerun...

https://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?53202-is-it-okay-to-sleep-in-your-car-at-a-trailhead

 

[sierra]

This is another rerun...

https://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?53202-is-it-okay-to-sleep-in-your-car-at-a-trailhead

That's a riot, my comments are almost identical. I just realized looking at that how long I've been on this site. When I hit 20 years, you should all chip in and buy me something nice. My shell will most likely need replacing by then. I prefer Patagonia and 3 layer Gore-Tex as I use it year round ( red too).