Snowshoes MUST be worn in Dacks

[afka_bob]

I'm sure the Adirondacks are a wonderful place, Mavs, and full of wonderful people, and both are wonderful sandboxes. I've debated the fee the WMNF charges and its implications, and I am just a bit troubled at the implications of the snoeshoe/ski rule somehow.

Rondak46, whether it is a rule or a law, is there a fine involved?

 

[Pete_Hickey]

so defensive about your li'l smooth winter trails? what you want? a snowcat to groom 'em down? c'mon!!! where's the challenge in that?

Read Bruno. It is a result of the SKIERS input, not the hikers. Sure it makes a nicer trail for hikers, but the main reason is that there are a lot more skiers there who do not like hikers messing up their trails.

Mr: Hickey: I don't apply the same ridicule to cannisters in heavy-use areas, though: that saves bears' lives.

How come so many people are calling me MR these days. Am I THAT old? I wasn't talking about bear cannisters, I was talking about the summit cannisters. When the DEC was asking for input in their master plan, those wanting the removal of the cannisters were there, but those wanting the cannisters to remain, in general, were not. Then, when the cannisters were removed, there was bitching about the DEC removing them.

Anyone bitching about the snowshow law in the high peaks region, should have been there several years ago when the DEC was asking for input.

 

[Whiteman]

Mr. Hickey

Hey Pete, as long as you've got that axe in your hand, we will call you "MR" or "SIR".

Great to meet you on the Wildcats on Saturday. Nice day, eh?

 

[ADK4Life]

I *GASP* barebooted Cascade and Porter 03/19/05 and the trails were fine, I postholed once and it was well off of the trail when I wanted to take a walk for a good picture. There was no point in the trail that was anything but perfect packed snow that is heaven to bareboot as winter comes to and end. The snowshoes were excessive at best anf I am sure all of the snowshoes with built in crampons leave a real mess after heavy traffic loosening the snow. Why do we have to cater to the snowshoers? (yeah yeah the law) I think Edward Whymper would be rolling in his grave rigth now thinking about how little of a challenge there is with all of these laws....OH NO A HOLE IN THE TRAIL!!@!@!@! What ever are we to do? Maybe stop being weak?

I respect the law when I can but some of these rules can take the challenge out of mountaineering. Life is EASY in snowshoes, barebooting offers more of a challenge..some opinions may differ but for the current time I will be keeping my MSR Ascent shoes in the closet. To keep strong for Whitney and Rainer this year I have been walking in deep snow to get a feel for being immersed in the white up past my knees...its all about conditioniong. How can you call yourself a mountaineer if you cannot handle obstacles or ruff trails?

 

[ADK4Life]

Any rules that needed to be followed in the Whites for the winter? I have climbed the Lions Head route in winter but I needed snow gear, barebooting was not an option. I am hoping to hike the Franconia Ridge Loop on Satuday and it would be nice to give it a try without anything but poles.

 

[afka_bob]

How come so many people are calling me MR these days. Am I THAT old?

Sorry, uh, sir -- I mean, uh, Pete

I wasn't talking about bear cannisters, I was talking about the summit cannisters. When the DEC was asking for input in their master plan, those wanting the removal of the cannisters were there, but those wanting the cannisters to remain, in general, were not. Then, when the cannisters were removed, there was bitching about the DEC removing them.

Imagine my mortification! Never mind!

Anyone bitching about the snowshow law in the high peaks region, should have been there several years ago when the DEC was asking for input.

Fair enough. It should also be noted that he Adirondacks are under a totally different management scheme than the WMNF or any National Forest or Park, and a system that seeks input from users is a commendable thing.

I'm still a little confused, though. Are these specifically ski trails or hiking trails? Is there a difference? There seems to be a difference in the WMNF where we have designated ski trails, hiking trails, and snowmobile trails.

If I were to hike along a ski trail (I have never done this deliberately but may by accident some day -- I get lost a lot), I would use great caution to not posthole or get in the way of skiers. I have noticed that snow-shoers routinely obliterate nice ski tracks on both ski-trails and mixed-use trails in the WMNF. Irritating, perhaps (though not as irritating as potholes, of course), but we suck it up and smile and wave as we pass.

When I hike or ski along a snowmobile trail (which I try to do as little as practical in assembling some hiking/skiing routes) I use great care to not get in anybody's way -- for courtesy and my own safety. The snowmobilers have always been very courteous and kind.

If I were just hiking along a hiking trail, I would try not to post hole, first for my convenience, than for everyone else's.

Fines for non-compliance to rather-draconian measures seems a bit thick and makes the rules/laws difference meaningless. Also, requiring an equipment purchase or rental to simply walk on public land puts it just that much farther out of reach of some folks. Also puts the kabosh on spontaneous use by even relatively-well-heeled hikers/skiers if they didn't throw the snow-shoes in the trunk or left them in the wrong trunk. I am sure that no one meant to make this more elitist (perhaps not even skiers, though they seem to want to make sure that this public land is maintained and enforced by tax-paid employees for their, if not exclusive, than prioritized convenience. I have gone round and round with dave.m on the WMNF parking fee issue, but now I will have to rethink this, too.

 

[Whiteman]

They even have rules in NH

I am hoping to hike the Franconia Ridge Loop on Satuday and it would be nice to give it a try without anything but poles.

ADK4Life: Believe it or not, it's true! They even have rules in NH! You might check here for the ones you find relevant:

Franconia Notch State Park (you will probably be parking there)

N.H. Park Pet Policy

Even the Feds have gotten into the act (these rules are primarily about camping)

The parking will be free if you are in Franconia State Park. Enjoy the Ridge!

 

[Warren]

There was a recent post mentioning the law and a fine. I think it was posted over the past few days. Here's a page from the DEC stating the rule, a more thorough search of the DEC site or VFTT should reveal the full reg, I think the text was posted this winter, it gets posted *every* winter:

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2004/2004141.html

Safety is specifically mentioned and I've always imagined that was due to the exhaustion factor of breaking trail without snowshoes. What the real reasons are and how it came to be is beyond me. One could argue that cotton has caused more safety issues than lack of snowshoes, it's even cited as a recommendation on the above page but I for one do not expect the wilderness regulation to have a clear logic to it.

While I would check with the actual regs (they are there on the DEC site somewhere) the above page states specifically the High Peaks. The other wilderness areas will have different reg/rules/laws/whatever, you might find that there is a something for everyone. Be prepared if you are without them even in a non required area to be approached by fellow hikers. The reg seems to empower the passerby. So it goes.

 

[afka_bob]

ADK4Life: Believe it or not, it's true! They even have rules in NH!

Yes.

But do these rules tell you how you must walk?

 

[percious]

You know, there is a thread like this EVERY year. Sometimes there are even multiple ones. Seems like old hat to me... I am primarily an ADK hiker (28/46) and I agree that the snowshoe reg is a tad rediculous. Problem is, it's a law, and it's there for the greater good, and you still have a choice whether or not to follow the rules.

The issue then becomes risk. Do you risk not bringing them? Often times my buddies and I will bring shoes, and then ditch them if the hardpack is good. Sometimes we have had to turn around for want of snowshoes. A few times we have seen the rangers handing out tickets. So, ultimately its up to you. It's like speed limits. Most people do not follow the signs, instead travelling as fast as they please. It all depends how much you want to risk getting a ticket.

-percious

 

[Pete_Hickey]

...and a system that seeks input from users is a commendable thing.

It also needs to be watched. Lobby groups sometimes have lots of money.

I'm still a little confused, though. Are these specifically ski trails or hiking trails? Is there a difference?

There are some designated ski trails, but most are shared trails. For example, the Van Ho trail up Marcy was once considered to be a classic ski trail, even though most of it is shared. Since the winter hiking boom of the 90's, hikers are now in the majority, and consider them to be their trails. They should realize, that, for the most part, the skiers were there first.

I have noticed that snow-shoers routinely obliterate nice ski tracks on both ski-trails and mixed-use trails in the WMNF.

Now put youself in the place of a skier, who has been skiing for years, when suddenly the amount of these hikers increases ten fold and the trails are regularly getting messed up. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just so that you can understand the feelings.

The snowmobilers have always been very courteous and kind.

They have a strong lobby, but are still pretty much not allowed.. at least in wilerness areas.

Also, requiring an equipment purchase or rental to simply walk on public land puts it just that much farther out of reach of some folks. ..... I am sure that no one meant to make this more elitist (perhaps not even skiers, though they seem to want to make sure that this public land is maintained and enforced by tax-paid employees for their, if not exclusive, than prioritized convenience.

Well, here I'll disagree with you. While the law requiring the WEARING is one thing, having them is a safety thing. Storms come in, loosing the trail, etc. Talking about the cost? Even if you buy your clothes at goodwill sotres, and second hand gear (pack, etc.) you're still going to have to invest a fair amount for hiking in the winter.

If we read a report here, of someone out for a hike, a storm came in, and they became stranded because they couldn't make it through the deep snow since they had no snowshoes, etc... expensive rescue needed ... How many people would be saying that these bozos (or bozo-ettes) should pay for their rescue because they were ill prepared.

Of course, there is the case of where to draw the line. A 0.2 mile hike to see a waterfall, vs a 10 mile hike up a remote mountain. Big difference there, but WHERE is the line drawn. That's the problem with laws. They have to be black and white.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Oh yeah... And speaking of rules... What about climbing Katahdin in the winter.

 

[afka_bob]

Pete,

Good points, all.

 

[ADackR]

all this because someone just found out about a regulation???? oh yeah, very good of all of you to help him out on what he needs for a day pack during the winter(disregard that if you have PM'd him)...

anyway, this is the way i see it.... i'm a skier, hiker, climber or what have you..... i do not see this law or regulation as a problem with the state or the people that wish to have the law..... as far as an elitest view, holy cow that's a pretty good strech considering a lot of people that posted said to hell with laws, i have to ask myself which is being elitest now????

then i have to think, if all the trails were barebooted how would they keep up in the long run??? it seems to me that eventually the trail would become eroded much faster in the spring and causeing those wonderful spring skiing conditions to end much faster....

my issue with barebooters is this, as someone as stated before when a trail is warm and postholed and refreezes this casues problems skiing and sometimes snowshoeing.... its' not because we are pansies(man that's is funny thing to hear) it's just comon courtesy for YOUR FELLOW HIKER/SKIER...

have a good one guys, and i can't wait for the MUD season threads....

what, we can't go hiking becasue of the MUD, suck it up it's part of mountinerring nevermind the distruction of that trail....

 

[afka_bob]

all this because someone just found out about a regulation???? oh yeah, very good of all of you to help him out on what he needs for a day pack during the winter(disregard that if you have PM'd him)...

Discussing something on a discussion forum? Yup, guilty as charged!

anyway, this is the way i see it....

Couldn't you have PMed this to anyone who cares?

 

[ADackR]

Discussing something on a discussion forum? Yup, guilty as charged!

Couldn't you have PMed this to anyone who cares?

ah, my favorite person on the forum... so good to hear from you and yes it's great to hear the discussion but when it starts to get nit picky and some people get chastized for their view on a law, well then it seems to me that it's just another discussion lost..

but hey, that's just me... and thanks for your concern...

 

[afka_bob]

Just trying to apply your logic to your post -- you know, where you chastized us for not answering the poor guy's question (which some did, BTW) but going on to discuss the underlying issue -- then you go on to discuss that issue yourself.

Thanks for the kudos!

 

[Mark]

Any rules that needed to be followed in the Whites for the winter? I have climbed the Lions Head route in winter but I needed snow gear, barebooting was not an option. I am hoping to hike the Franconia Ridge Loop on Satuday and it would be nice to give it a try without anything but poles.

I don't think there are specific laws that require you to carry snow shoes for this hike, but if you have to bail out from the ridge, you will have one heck of a time getting out of the woods without snow shoes. If you require rescue, you could be charged for the rescue for being ill equipped without snow shoes.

 

[afka_bob]

You should have been a diaper, always on someone's ass and full of ****

Of course, the "diaper" is society's response to the, uh, excrement, not the cause. For that, it seems we have you

All-in-all, an apt and non-political analogy (begging your pardon, Holdstrong) -- often, if you respond with something folks don't like you can catch a lot of it.

In any case, thank you for raising the level of discourse!

P.S.
I am elated to be both the subject and recipient of 3 of your first 4 posts ("lighten the hell up," "you have a problem," and "you should have been a diaper") to VFTT! I am my favorite subject, too!

Of course, if we were to apply your "diaper" logic to you, it would seem that perhaps you have a bit of the nappy yourself!

 

[ADK4Life]

I figured that the Bridal Trail would be well worn in after last weekends perfect weather.