"Personal locator beacon"? Is that like an EPIRB (used by boats offshore, typically)?
(EPIRB=Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacon)
Tim
(EPIRB=Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacon)
Tim
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Pete_Hickey
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I would never take one of those while hiking alone in the lower 48. I wouldn't take one if I were paid to....... well, if the amount got high enough, I'd take one just to make money...wromanow said:
I will not hike with the expatation that if something happens to me--even if it is not due to stupidity--(EG I get hit by a meteorite) --I can get rescued.
Sn1t happens all the time. If it happens to me, so be it.
Probability-wise, I probably take much more risks with my 1500 miles of winter bike riding.
timmus
Well-known member
Pete_Hickey said:
darren said:
I always thought hiking solo had something to do with not being scared of the fatality.
Call it stupidity, adventure or risks, I just call it freedom.
I'm with Pig Pen.
darren
Poobah Emeritus
If any more of you join Pig Pen then he will never be solo. Just make sure if you are with him when he breaks his leg that you leave him where he is and then just walk away and do not get help. Then we will see if he lives or dies. The information will add to our statistical database for future discussions. 
If you really are not afraid of the risk of fatality then there really shouldn't be a discussion on the risks of hiking solo in winter. Why bother with the discussion? Just go do it if you want to. Again, it is a individual choice.
- darren
If you really are not afraid of the risk of fatality then there really shouldn't be a discussion on the risks of hiking solo in winter. Why bother with the discussion? Just go do it if you want to. Again, it is a individual choice.
- darren
DougPaul
Well-known member
Yes. Two units: http://www.rei.com/online/store/Search?storeId=8000&vcat=REI_SEARCH&query=plb&x=0&y=0bikehikeskifish said:
You have to registe the unit and will be fined for frivilous use. (At least one fine has already been levied--in the DAKs.)
Aircraft also carry EPIRBs.
Doug
DougPaul said:
At least on the boat, if things "go bad" it automatically deploys (if the vessel goes down.) What happens in the wilderness if you are suddenly knocked unconscious? And presumably it has the same delay in relaying position as the marine units which means it is not immediately effective. And what if you're somewhere the satellites cannot read you? We already know that GPS occasionally loses the signal.
I.e., how much safety does it really add? Statistically, it probably increases your chance of survival, by a small amount. But if you are prepared to survive (bivy, sleeping bag, food, etc.) it probably doesn't increase your chances of being located by much, if in fact you have a written plan and stick to it. Again this would depend on the delay in sending the "Oh crap" signal.
Tim
Tim Seaver
Well-known member
I end up doing a lot of hiking alone in winter, much of it above treeline. I usually base my hikes around the weather and some photographic goal that usually calls for a mid-week, 2 am start at the trailhead, and I have found it's remarkably difficult to recruit people for such ventures . So I really don't have much of a choice most of the time.
I wouldn't question that it's riskier than being with a group, regardless of your experience level. Making sound choices about weather, gear and conditions, being familiar with the terrain, etc. can go a long way towards minimizing some of the risks. But as Darren pointed out, being alone and finding yourself suddenly immobilized in nasty above treeline conditions is nowhere you want to be.
If you do it, be careful!
. So I really don't have much of a choice most of the time.I wouldn't question that it's riskier than being with a group, regardless of your experience level. Making sound choices about weather, gear and conditions, being familiar with the terrain, etc. can go a long way towards minimizing some of the risks. But as Darren pointed out, being alone and finding yourself suddenly immobilized in nasty above treeline conditions is nowhere you want to be.
If you do it, be careful!
Pete_Hickey
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It also has to do with not having any friends.timmus said:
I dunno. I always hiked solo. I started at the age of 17. I think I was in my mid 40's the first time I ever hiked with another adult (I had taken my children before).
I kind of think that PigPen is right if you look at it mathematically. You have to look at P(x) where the x is something happening AND it is something that you can't get out alone.
What is the probablilty of something happening where you will depend on those with you to help you.
To me, saying, "If it happens, you'll be glad someone is with you." is Dear Abbey logic. Her common line is, "If it saves one life, it's worht it." It is based on feelings, not math.
Of course feelings come into play when one is walking alone. Some feel comfortable doing it, and others don't. Nothing wrong with that. I'm one who enjoys hiking alone. Unfortunately, after my last two serious accidents, my wife strongly encourages me to hike with someone. I miss those days of winter bushwhacking alone, to some remote place.
TomD
New member
Going solo and what to take has to be one of the more contentious topics for hikers. I've seen other threads like this on other sites.
As far as the PLB goes, why not if you can afford it? I've hiked and biked alone, long before those were available, but wouldn't have minded having one. Maybe knowing you can't be rescued makes you more careful. I've been places where no one on the planet knew where I was or wouldn't have even known I was missing for weeks, if not months. Even if they had, they would have had no idea where to look. I thought about it a few times, but didn't let it bother me much. (Yes I know that would not be considered very smart, but I was overseas and didn't know anyone in country.)
As far as the PLB goes, why not if you can afford it? I've hiked and biked alone, long before those were available, but wouldn't have minded having one. Maybe knowing you can't be rescued makes you more careful. I've been places where no one on the planet knew where I was or wouldn't have even known I was missing for weeks, if not months. Even if they had, they would have had no idea where to look. I thought about it a few times, but didn't let it bother me much. (Yes I know that would not be considered very smart, but I was overseas and didn't know anyone in country.)
darren
Poobah Emeritus
Pete_Hickey said:
Well, "IT" has happened to me twice and I am glad I had someone with me both times.
If you want to talk statistics, then the whole thing is off because people who have had major accidents while they have been with other people are not included in any of the statistics you will find. There are TONS of incidents where an injured person has "gotten out" with the help of the people they were with. While these incidents could have caused death, these incidents are not reported to the authorities, so they are not part of the statistical base that one could research. If they had been solo, however, I can bet you they would be part of the statististics that you could look up.
You can quote the winter of 2004 and say that there were 4 deaths and only 1 of them was a solo hiker who didn't ignore the weather blah blah blah but you have no hard data on how many people were seriously injured and got out only by the help of who they were with. You also have no hard data on the number of people that hike solo vs the number of people who hike in groups. Anyone have any data on how many rescues are performed after a group member went for help vs. someone who was solo and someone just happened to find them?
Without hard data, you are not looking at it mathematically. Sorry, as an engineer I just have to say that the "math" thing here is right out the window.
If you are really talking about safety in terms of life and death, then you are not talking about stuff that happens to you that you can get yourself out of. That means you are only talking about things that you can not get yourself out of. If that is what you are talking about, then there is no debate. If you can't get yourself out, then you are dead solo and maybe alive if in a group. That certainly is not Dear Abbey logic.
How many people here have had a major injury where they relied on others in their group to get them out or to go get help?
I have gotten myself out of the backcountry after a fall resulting in a dislocated hip and torn ligaments that required half a year of rehab and also after another fall when I was solo that resulted in very bad concussion (knocked unconscious and I woke up wondering what I was doing in the woods). I was able to get myself out of the woods both times under my own power, so your definition these incidents do not count in our discussion of safety.
However, I have relied on others twice, I have assisted in an evacuation in Baxter where one of the party members went for help when a woman broke her leg, and my friend's old hiking partner died while he was solo hiking Eisenhower in winter (coincidently, that freind of mine was the one that saved my life when I was hypothermic - he was supposed to hike with the guy that died, but couldn't make it so the guy went solo). So, that is 3 "they lived" group stories and 1 he died solo story. Surely I can not be some wierd center of bad happenings. Others here must have similar experiences.
So, who here thinks they or someone they know would have died if not for who they were with?
- d
sierra
Well-known member
I am an expert soloist so I will chime in here. I have soloed in winter conditions for many years in the Whites, mostly on the the presidentials, Washington being my main objective ( over 100 winter solo's) in addition, I have soloed 14ers in CO in the winter. Here's my thing. I leave no internary with anyone, I carry no cell phone. I simply rely on my gear and experience to get in and get out. Will most think this is acceptable? not here on this site for sure. But realize, there are many styles of climbers out there. There are even people who dont solo in the winter because there wife wont let them ( Im sorry I dont get that at all) I consider myself to be a professional climber, even though I work as well. To me its simply about the purity of a pursuit. I live to climb and have dedicated my life to it, my passion desearves and gets my best and the rewards I reep from this level of dedication are all I can hope for. Will most agree or even understand this level of commitment? no they wont and there my friends lies the heart of my post. Unless your willing to risk it all in any endeavor you may choose in life ( not just climbing) your results will equal your level of commitment. Peace all.
DougPaul
Well-known member
Nothing is perfect. It simply increases the chance that you can get help if you need it.bikehikeskifish said:
They also have costs: weight, space, and money. And some people don't like the loss of self-sufficiency.
EPIRBs on boats and aircraft don't always work either. And even if they do, the people may still die.
Doug
darren
Poobah Emeritus
sierra said:
If you have the proper experience and gear (which you seem to), then it is completely acceptable. Who is anyone to judge what others do that is within the bounds of reason? If YOU are prepared to accept the risks and YOU are prepared for them, then all the more power to you for doing what you want to do. "L-I-V-I-N. Livin."
- darren
michaelb
New member
I really appreciate this thread, since this is a question that I wrestle with myself, standing on the ridge looking up. I perceive risks differently now at 41, with 2 small kids and family, then I did at 30. I view going above treeline in the winter as a question of your relative exposure. The farther you go, the more exposed you become. There is a dramatic difference between our mts of Vt and the Whites where the exposure would be measured in hours. I also like to snowshoe off trail, or on trails nobody else has been on, so there are plenty of risks below treeline in winter too.
About 10 years ago, I went cross country skiing after work in a park in the Burl area. I was the only one there. It had been beautiful sunny March day, but night and the temperatures were falling rapidly. The trail, melted in the sun, froze up solid. I decided to drop down the slope off the trail, really only 40-50 feet down, to get off the icy trail. Within a sec or two, I broke through the crust, skis stuck into the cement, and I broke my ankle. I was maybe half a mile from my car, a mile or two from the nearest house. It was getting dark, I was alone, I had no pack or gear and was dressed lightly. I had no choice but to ski out, which really wasn't that bad, although shifting the clutch in my truck with a broken ankle was the most painful thing I have ever done.
So I try to keep in mind that you can get yourself into a heap of trouble in the winter alone, with a split second decision, or an accident, without even realizing what you are about to get yourself into.
About 10 years ago, I went cross country skiing after work in a park in the Burl area. I was the only one there. It had been beautiful sunny March day, but night and the temperatures were falling rapidly. The trail, melted in the sun, froze up solid. I decided to drop down the slope off the trail, really only 40-50 feet down, to get off the icy trail. Within a sec or two, I broke through the crust, skis stuck into the cement, and I broke my ankle. I was maybe half a mile from my car, a mile or two from the nearest house. It was getting dark, I was alone, I had no pack or gear and was dressed lightly. I had no choice but to ski out, which really wasn't that bad, although shifting the clutch in my truck with a broken ankle was the most painful thing I have ever done.
So I try to keep in mind that you can get yourself into a heap of trouble in the winter alone, with a split second decision, or an accident, without even realizing what you are about to get yourself into.
DougPaul
Well-known member
Sorry, as an engineer, I disagree.darren said:
Mathematically, risk = probability_of_accident * cost_of_accident.
Soloing can reduce the probability of specific accidents or increase it depending upon the details.
Similarly, soloing can reduce or increase the cost of specific accidents depending upon the details.
Even if we had adequate data to estimate the probabilities and costs, the numbers would be for the average hiker/mountaineer. IMO, many of us deviate significantly from average on both.
Humans are notoriously bad at estimating the probability of low probability events--in practice we tend to use our perceptions, anecdotes, biases, fears, etc. And our differing risk tolerances.
We may not have good numbers, but the above equation at least allows us to understand how the factors interact.
While I do not think above treeline soloing is appropriate for an inexperienced winter hiker, among experienced winter hikers, it is a personal decision.
BTW, there are some data available. One source is the rec.backcountry "Morbid backcountry/memorial: Distilled Wisdom", panel 16, posted periodically to rec.backcounty. Some excerpts posted below.
Doug
From the rec.backcountry "Morbid backcountry/memorial: Distilled Wisdom", http://groups.google.com/group/rec....Wisdom"++morbid&rnum=1&hl=en#9f0c61ed1f448086
Code:
Involuntary Risks: Risk of death/person-year
-------------------------------------------------------------
Struck by automobile (USA) 1 in 20,000
Struck by automobile (UK) 1 in 16,600
Lightning (UK) 1 in 10 million
Influenza 1 in 5000
Voluntary Risks: Deaths/person-year (odds)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Smoking, 20 cigs/day 1 in 200
Motorcycling 1 in 50
Automobile driving 1 in 5,900
Rock climbing 1 in 7,150
Skiing 1 in 1,430,000
Canoeing 1 in 100,000
Pregnancy (UK) 1 in 4,350
Code:
dead from
10000 people
per year
pedestrian in traffic 0.4 per 100 hours
jogging 1.5
housekeeping 2
driving 2.5
mountaineering 4 including: climbing,mountaineering,
mountain hiking and biking,ski,
snowboarding, hunting...
members of swiss
alpine club 3.3
professional guide 24
Matterhorn 30 per ascent
members of GHM 70 Groupe de Haute Montagne: a french
group of extreme alpinists
Himalaya 200 per expedition (no trekking)
Eiger north face 1670 per ascent (1935-1970)
travel by air 30 per 100 hours
smoking 36
motorcycling 90The next section is total occurance rates, not probabilities. (need to know how many people-days for each activity to compute probabilities.)
Code:
Automobile accidents 42,000
Fall to death 13,000
Poisoning 6,500
Drowning 4,500
Choking 2,900
Hit by falling object 800
Slip in shower/bathtub 300
Struck by lightening 89
Skiing 32
Code:
ESTIMATE OF FATAL RISK BY ACTIVITY>
Activity # Fatalities per 1,000,000 exposure hours
-------- -----------------------------------------
Skydiving 128.71
General Aviation 15.58
On-road Motorcycling 8.80
Scuba Diving 1.98
Living (all causes of death) 1.53
Swimming 1.07
Snowmobiling .88
Passenger cars .47
Water skiing .28
Bicycling .26
Flying (scheduled domestic airlines) .15
Hunting .08
Cosmic Radiation from transcontinental flights .035
Home Living (active) .027
Traveling in a School Bus .022
Passenger Car Post-collision fire .017
Home Living, active & passive (sleeping) .014
Residential Fire .003>
Data compiled by Failure Analysis Associates, Inc., published
in Design News, 10-4-93
Last edited:
TomD
New member
Why bother to ask?
I don't understand the question, or more accurately, I don't understand the context. What is acceptable risk to you, given your desires, obligations, loved ones who may be affected if you disappear or get killed or injured on one of your trips is wholly personal to you. Anyone else who chooses to do what you do would most likely weigh those same factors for themselves. As long as those risks don't affect me personally, I have no reason to care at all what risks others choose to take.sierra said:
DougPaul
Well-known member
Unfortunately, risks that are taken by others do affect you and me. Regulations, insurance rates, etc. And, of course, official pronoucements that one should never hike alone...TomD said:
Doug
D
dvbl
Guest
sierra said:
I'm printing this one.
Artex
New member
Hike your own hike. 'Nuff said and case closed.
Kevin Rooney
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I've enjoyed reading this thread, and am glad it has come up again this year. There are always 'new-to-winter-hiking' posters and readers. While the usual factors (experience, conditioning, equipment, personality type, etc) are being discussed, what seems to have an increased emphasis this year is the awareness that where one is along 'life's continuum' has a bearing on what each of us considers acceptable risk. In other words - the impact that an injury or death would have on our family/friends/work is an important, and variable, factor as we age.
One other comment - last year there was a very interesting thread re: the level of obligation people felt towards others while group hiking. What was an eye opener for me were the number of people who felt little or no obligation to help others in the event of an emergency. So, choose your hiking companions carefully if the assumption is that everyone is responsible for everyone else as not everyone in your group may share that point of view.
Kevin
One other comment - last year there was a very interesting thread re: the level of obligation people felt towards others while group hiking. What was an eye opener for me were the number of people who felt little or no obligation to help others in the event of an emergency. So, choose your hiking companions carefully if the assumption is that everyone is responsible for everyone else as not everyone in your group may share that point of view.
Kevin
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