Spring Equinox and Winter Summits

[strider]

With the Spring Equinox falling late in the day this year (5:58pm EDST), I was wondering about the "rules" for counting a winter summit. Is it enough to reach the summit before the equinox? Or do you have to return to the trailhead before the magic minute? Per the FAQ section on the AMC website:

"Trips must begin after the hour and minute of the beginning of winter (winter solstice), and end before the hour and minute of the end of winter (spring equinox)."

That seems pretty clear...or does it? What defines when the trip ends? When the summit is reached? When I return to the TH? When I return to my car? Or when I return to my home in CT (i.e. does that count as part of the "trip")? Interested to hear the group's opinion on this.

BTW - I'm not a lawyer, but I frequently play one at work!

 

[bikehikeskifish]

You must return to your starting point before the hour and minute.

Tim

 

[JoshandBaron]

For the sake of splitting hairs I don't care about, it's trail head to trail head. Not all hikes are loops or out-and-backs.

 

[peakbagger]

Dayhiking is simple the hike is not over until back to the trailhead. This was discussed when a hiker passed away on his last 100 highest summit attempt and the question was did the hike count. (I think there was other discussion that no one knew if he had reached the summit and was heading back or passed away prior to reaching the summit. I think that was not always the case as I remember heading out early on a few equinox hikes to summit before it went to spring.

Not so simple on a multiday trek that happens to straddle the date.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

For the sake of splitting hairs I don't care about, it's trail head to trail head. Not all hikes are loops or out-and-backs.

More correct, but for even finer splitting hairs, you need to be on the public road Ie, Carters via Imp / 19MBT (A loop) you can walk the road in spring as long as you hit the public and open to travel road prior to the arrival of the next season.

Tim

 

[Mike P.]

One year I opted out of Eisenhower and just did Pierce. I got back early enough to go add Willard to winter. (For my personal list) I'd say if you went up C-Path and down Edmands, and you had gotten to the parking lot you would have made it. Not sure on a backpacking trip. If I do Madison and Adams and spend the night at an RMC Cabin, then do Jefferson after the equinox, do the first two count for winter?

 

[alexmtn]

I'd say if you went up C-Path and down Edmands, and you had gotten to the [Edmands] parking lot you would have made it.

Nope (that is, unless by some fluke the Edmands lot was publicly accessible by car.) By the AMC list rules (e.g., W48, WNE100), the completion time for a peak is the time at which you reach a point that is publicly accessible by car (doesn't need to be your trailhead).

Not sure on a backpacking trip. If I do Madison and Adams and spend the night at an RMC Cabin, then do Jefferson after the equinox, do the first two count for winter?

No. On any sort of all-backcountry loop/traverse, the completion time for those peaks is the time at which you make it to a point that's publicly accessible by car.

 

[Mike P.]

Thanks Alex, Usually Edmunds would not be reachable these days. When Base Road was not plowed and the Cog used the Mt. Clinton Road, it could have been reachable if they plowed it. (dating myself)

 

[Tom Rankin]

Yesterday, we did Table and Peekamoose, and then Table again. Someone finished their regular Catskill 35 list on Peekamoose. Another person asked if the 2nd summiting of Table then counted for the first person's Winter list. I explained that you can not count a peak twice on a single hike for any given list, but any summiting of a peak in Winter counts as an all-season hike as well, so the first summiting counted for both. Confused yet? ;-)

 

[dug]

I took a different route. If I climbed a peak in "winter" conditions, I checked it off my internal list. I experienced that peak in "winter" conditions, which was my goal. Sometimes, that occurred in November or March. I let the weather dictate my hikes, not the calendar.

 

[jrbren]

I took a different route. If I climbed a peak in "winter" conditions, I checked it off my internal list. I experienced that peak in "winter" conditions, which was my goal. Sometimes, that occurred in November or March. I let the weather dictate my hikes, not the calendar.

I accept this as my official end of winter ...

https://www.joespondvermont.com/iceout.php

 

[cushetunk]

I took a different route. If I climbed a peak in "winter" conditions, I checked it off my internal list. I experienced that peak in "winter" conditions, which was my goal. Sometimes, that occurred in November or March. I let the weather dictate my hikes, not the calendar.

That’s mostly my approach too, but there’s no denying it’s a “namby pamby” way to go about it!

 

[alexmtn]

BUT -- if one went up the Crawford-Connector and Crawford Path, and then down the Edmands Path, and road-walked Mt. Clinton Road back to the Crawford Connector and the initial starting point, that would be fine, correct?

Yes, you'd be starting at a point that's publicly accessible by car, and ending at one.

 

[skiguy]

That’s mostly my approach too, but there’s no denying it’s a “namby pamby” way to go about it!

Who you calling "namby pamby". This past November had some full on "Winter Conditions" and not to mention the end of March into early April with this years snowpack will be epic.

 

[alexmtn]

Who you calling "namby pamby". This past November had some full on "Winter Conditions" and not to mention the end of March into early April with this years snowpack will be epic.

I traditionally join with several fellow AMC-ers to offer a single-day presi traverse each June. Often, we'll encounter and cross an approximately 1-acre snow field on the east side of Jefferson's summit cone, and temps can flirt with freezing. Completing the hike certainly affords participants some bragging rights, but 'winter conditions' would not be a claim I'd endorse.

Whatever the context -- bragging rights, "list" requirements, trip leadership safety guidelines, references to "winter conditions" would benefit greatly from a precise definition within that context. Temps? Winds? Snow accumulation? Ice? Active precip&type? Etc.

Alex

 

[skiguy]

I traditionally join with several fellow AMC-ers to offer a single-day presi traverse each June. Often, we'll encounter and cross an approximately 1-acre snow field on the east side of Jefferson's summit cone, and temps can flirt with freezing. Completing the hike certainly affords participants some bragging rights, but 'winter conditions' would not be a claim I'd endorse.

Whatever the context -- bragging rights, "list" requirements, trip leadership safety guidelines, references to "winter conditions" would benefit greatly from a precise definition within that context. Temps? Winds? Snow accumulation? Ice? Active precip&type? Etc.

Alex

Within my own personal context I do not find a need to rhetorically define what Winter Conditions are as I have experienced them plenty of times to know what they are. Although maybe as an AMC leader one would have to define those parameters for their clientele in order to be responsible especially when dealing with folks new to the hobby. With that said I find I also do not have to categorically assign strict parameters to the other three seasons of the year as well to understand what conditions I’m personally experiencing. IMO some of it I’m sure can be be attributed to one’s own personal perceptions and tolerances for a given weather/conditions. For instance I can make a personal interpretation of what I consider Winter Conditions distinguishing it from “Full on” Winter Conditions.

 

[dug]

I traditionally join with several fellow AMC-ers to offer a single-day presi traverse each June. Often, we'll encounter and cross an approximately 1-acre snow field on the east side of Jefferson's summit cone, and temps can flirt with freezing. Completing the hike certainly affords participants some bragging rights, but 'winter conditions' would not be a claim I'd endorse.

Whatever the context -- bragging rights, "list" requirements, trip leadership safety guidelines, references to "winter conditions" would benefit greatly from a precise definition within that context. Temps? Winds? Snow accumulation? Ice? Active precip&type? Etc.

Alex

You're overthinking it.

I go with "dayum, it was cold & snowy today" and if it felt like winter (to me), I consider it done. If it didn't (to me), I don't.

 

[alexmtn]

Within my own personal context...

...if it felt like winter (to me), I consider it done. If it didn't (to me), I don't.

Great point. Clearly the challenge lies in trying to get formal with standards across personal contexts rather than within them.

Alex

 

[skiguy]

Great point. Clearly the challenge lies in trying to get formal with standards across personal contexts rather than within them.

Alex

I see no challenge because I see no need to be formal with standards across or within any context when it comes to conditions. They are what they are at the time they are.

 

[sierra]

I stick to the calendar. I have done peaks here and out west in winter conditions, during non winter months. I never considered them winter ascents. I could see describing hikes as "winter conditions" in non winter months for prep though, that lends to being prepared with a clear distinction. But if I see someone recording a winter ascent in a non winter month, I'm breaking their pencil.