Strange Pattern to This Winter's Fatalities in the Whites
- Thread starter Peter Miller
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Pete Hogan
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Sorry, I think I might have it this time....
Share Your Knowledge.......
In Peter Miller's second response to this thread (which he started), he said,
quote:
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There is a book waiting to be written here by someone who has the talent and time to thoroughly research these deaths.
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I am amazed, thoroughly impressed and very grateful for the wisdom of experience that is shared on this website and, in particular, on this current topic. It would be wise for any potential author of such a book to note well the individual and collective wisdom of the members of this forum.
After nearly thirty years of mountain hiking and backpacking, I continue to learn and grow from personal experience (both positive and negative) and the knowledge shared by the hiking community involved in this remarkable site.
Share Your Knowledge.......
In Peter Miller's second response to this thread (which he started), he said,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a book waiting to be written here by someone who has the talent and time to thoroughly research these deaths.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am amazed, thoroughly impressed and very grateful for the wisdom of experience that is shared on this website and, in particular, on this current topic. It would be wise for any potential author of such a book to note well the individual and collective wisdom of the members of this forum.
After nearly thirty years of mountain hiking and backpacking, I continue to learn and grow from personal experience (both positive and negative) and the knowledge shared by the hiking community involved in this remarkable site.
Mark_151
New member
I've felt the same sense of tense guardedness and heightened sense of all around me in the Whites in winter, on hiking trails, as I've felt a few pitches up on technical routes. It's a feeling of committment and seriousness that makes winter hiking every bit as intoxicating to me as climbing. And the fear can be similar - like the time the zipper on my bag came off in my hand in the middle of the Pemi while I was turning in and the temp was at -20F. Sometimes you can get complacent during the easier times, though, and you can find yourself thinking of what you're doing as "routine", which in these places, especially in winter, it never is.
mavs00
New member
A very good and important threat.
First off, thanks to Mr. Miller for tenderly approaching a very important topic. I have looked on in interest. I'm not sure I have anything enlightening to add, but 2 things were said that I think are important.
1) GRUMPY - brings out a good point that it may well be a little early to really properly dissect the events. Many of the wounds are much too raw for the people who will be needed for the information.
2) ROYSWKR - Points out that many of this year’s incidents seem to involve either very fit, athletic types or very knowledgeable winter hikers. Not the typical "Not without peril" victims.
Knowledgeable and high levels of fitness breed confidence in ones own ability. That's not a bad thing, but on occasion, when things get a little more difficult than expected, they could find themselves to far out on the edge of the envelope.
This strikes me as something that I've also commonly read about in some victims of high altitude mountaineering (like in the 8K or 7 summit range) accidents as well.
Anyhow, good post.
First off, thanks to Mr. Miller for tenderly approaching a very important topic. I have looked on in interest. I'm not sure I have anything enlightening to add, but 2 things were said that I think are important.
1) GRUMPY - brings out a good point that it may well be a little early to really properly dissect the events. Many of the wounds are much too raw for the people who will be needed for the information.
2) ROYSWKR - Points out that many of this year’s incidents seem to involve either very fit, athletic types or very knowledgeable winter hikers. Not the typical "Not without peril" victims.
Knowledgeable and high levels of fitness breed confidence in ones own ability. That's not a bad thing, but on occasion, when things get a little more difficult than expected, they could find themselves to far out on the edge of the envelope.
This strikes me as something that I've also commonly read about in some victims of high altitude mountaineering (like in the 8K or 7 summit range) accidents as well.
Anyhow, good post.
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Mike P.
Well-known member
Probably more group accidents than solo as greater percentage of people hiking in a group or at least not alone. John missed even a greater point, what is worse than a very experienced leader being at the mercy of his neophyte team is if one of teh newbies is injured, while the experienced person is caring for him, he is out longer than he would have been if solo. It's the law of large numbers (- Insurance logic , yikes).
One house (one hiker) has a very small chance of burning down (getting injured or worse while hiking) In a group of 50,000 houses, (hikers) one very likely will burn, (get injured). Who & why that person over someone else?
Some people get away with smoking in bed for years, some hikers get away being unprepared for years. If I don't burn my house down am I a very good smoker? If I get away with cheating the mountain for 3 years or ten years or 20 years, am I automatically considered experienced or lucky? Who makes that call? Maybe I'm just a chicken because when the first cloud is seen I run back to the car. (Many viewless days would seem to indicate I don't but someone may. If you are a summit or die person needing peaks on the last day of the season, you are probably at greater risk than a chicken.
However some chickens fall into streams fleeing & drown while some summit or die people never get caught. Or think of an accident involving a drunk driver & a completely innocent mother. In the drunks case you you can say he had it coming he drove like that every Friday & Saturday Night for 15 years. (I never turn back & the weather has not caught me yet) The mother on teh other hand happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Changing her case to hiking, the drunk is the weather/mountain, how it raises up & strikes is random to her but every so often, it strikes at the closest target, it doesn't look for someone who deserves it, just whoever is closest.
A whole book, I don't know but as "Not Without Peril" grew out a long story (I believe) first written in Yankee Magazine about the 1996 deaths (Tinkham, the two NJ Ice Climbers & the accidents in Tucks) it seems this year may warrant a short sequel to NWP or another Yankee article. Heck Ski season in Tucks has not even hit the high point yet, has it? While winter is over, we still have a couple of months before snow, ice & cold weather mishaps are not possible.
One house (one hiker) has a very small chance of burning down (getting injured or worse while hiking) In a group of 50,000 houses, (hikers) one very likely will burn, (get injured). Who & why that person over someone else?
Some people get away with smoking in bed for years, some hikers get away being unprepared for years. If I don't burn my house down am I a very good smoker? If I get away with cheating the mountain for 3 years or ten years or 20 years, am I automatically considered experienced or lucky? Who makes that call? Maybe I'm just a chicken because when the first cloud is seen I run back to the car. (Many viewless days would seem to indicate I don't but someone may. If you are a summit or die person needing peaks on the last day of the season, you are probably at greater risk than a chicken.
However some chickens fall into streams fleeing & drown while some summit or die people never get caught. Or think of an accident involving a drunk driver & a completely innocent mother. In the drunks case you you can say he had it coming he drove like that every Friday & Saturday Night for 15 years. (I never turn back & the weather has not caught me yet) The mother on teh other hand happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Changing her case to hiking, the drunk is the weather/mountain, how it raises up & strikes is random to her but every so often, it strikes at the closest target, it doesn't look for someone who deserves it, just whoever is closest.
A whole book, I don't know but as "Not Without Peril" grew out a long story (I believe) first written in Yankee Magazine about the 1996 deaths (Tinkham, the two NJ Ice Climbers & the accidents in Tucks) it seems this year may warrant a short sequel to NWP or another Yankee article. Heck Ski season in Tucks has not even hit the high point yet, has it? While winter is over, we still have a couple of months before snow, ice & cold weather mishaps are not possible.
Ridgerunner
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Wind
First, my prayers go out in the wind to those who grieve right now. In a way, we all do.
This winter was a special one because of the wind. I don't remember (of late) such a windy winter. In stiff winds, you can get cold very fast and loose your fighting power. Hypothermia will immobilize you rapidly. And if you climbed without goggles and face the task of backtracking without them, it is very very difficult. The wind might have been a factor. I still have a numb finger from February...
First, my prayers go out in the wind to those who grieve right now. In a way, we all do.
This winter was a special one because of the wind. I don't remember (of late) such a windy winter. In stiff winds, you can get cold very fast and loose your fighting power. Hypothermia will immobilize you rapidly. And if you climbed without goggles and face the task of backtracking without them, it is very very difficult. The wind might have been a factor. I still have a numb finger from February...
Jack Waldron
New member
I disagree with the contention that this winter's 4 fatalities form a strange or atypical pattern. I don't think that the experience levels, equipment/gear, or physical conditioning were critical issues. The critical issue is the decision making process. We all make lots of trivial decisions on the trail, whether to eat gorp or an energy bar, whether snowshoes or crampons are more comfortable for specific trail conditions. But the critical decisions are the go/no-go or turnaround decisions. Those times when we assess our skills, gear, experience, and fatigue levels against the immediate problems the mountains present to us. The difficulty that I experience when making those decisions is isolating my rational evaluation process from my emotional drives and desires.
A newbie hiker may walk off a mythical cliff because of ignorance. A more experienced hiker knows the cliff is there but is confident that he can walk right to the edge and then return. Problems arise when emotions distort our perception of exactly where that edge lies.
Based on public accounts the Mt Clay incident occurred when the 3 skiers were in the process of turning around because Pipeline Gully was too icy for skiing. Pipeline Gully typically has about a 40 degree slope according to guidebooks. One skier slipped and slid/fell about 1000 feet down Pipeline Gully. He was seriously injured. His two buddies responded to help him. One skier had crampons and an ice axe. He descended successfully. The other skier had crampons but no ice axe. He descended using crampons and a ski pole. I don't know if the ski pole contributed directly to his fall and subsequent death. But I would guess that if you had asked him 30 minutes earlier to hike down an icy, 40 degree slope with crampons and a ski pole he may very well have laughed at you. With a buddy hurt and needing help he either rationally decided that such a risk was worth taking or emotionally decided to just do it. My guess is that emotions played a prominent role in his decision process.
When we hike into the teeth of danger, occasionally it may be because of ignorance, but it's more likely that our emotions push us past the point of no return. Experienced hikers who have been to the edge and back are more susceptible to this behavior pattern than newbies. Accident reports provide valuable information to educate the hiking public. But when experienced hikers make serious or fatal mistakes it's more likely due to emotions distorting their perception of risk rather than a plain old dumb mistake that we can learn to avoid.
A newbie hiker may walk off a mythical cliff because of ignorance. A more experienced hiker knows the cliff is there but is confident that he can walk right to the edge and then return. Problems arise when emotions distort our perception of exactly where that edge lies.
Based on public accounts the Mt Clay incident occurred when the 3 skiers were in the process of turning around because Pipeline Gully was too icy for skiing. Pipeline Gully typically has about a 40 degree slope according to guidebooks. One skier slipped and slid/fell about 1000 feet down Pipeline Gully. He was seriously injured. His two buddies responded to help him. One skier had crampons and an ice axe. He descended successfully. The other skier had crampons but no ice axe. He descended using crampons and a ski pole. I don't know if the ski pole contributed directly to his fall and subsequent death. But I would guess that if you had asked him 30 minutes earlier to hike down an icy, 40 degree slope with crampons and a ski pole he may very well have laughed at you. With a buddy hurt and needing help he either rationally decided that such a risk was worth taking or emotionally decided to just do it. My guess is that emotions played a prominent role in his decision process.
When we hike into the teeth of danger, occasionally it may be because of ignorance, but it's more likely that our emotions push us past the point of no return. Experienced hikers who have been to the edge and back are more susceptible to this behavior pattern than newbies. Accident reports provide valuable information to educate the hiking public. But when experienced hikers make serious or fatal mistakes it's more likely due to emotions distorting their perception of risk rather than a plain old dumb mistake that we can learn to avoid.
Another article in local paper...
http://www4.fosters.com/news2004/March2004/March_25/News/reg_nh_0325.04e.asp
http://www4.fosters.com/news2004/March2004/March_25/News/reg_nh_0325.04e.asp
RickB.
Active member
I've been winter hiking for a very long time. This winter, for the first time, I soloed many peaks, giving me lots of time to introspect regarding my activities in the mountains. I was huddled on Mt. Flume Monday, looking across at the plume blowing off Lafayette, unaware that those poor souls were up there; I haven't slept well since.
What it's left me with is that there are a multitude of risks involved, risks that can't be negated with the best of judgement. What is most frequently lacking is hikers' ability to assess or even acknowledge those risks. The summer boots and 1300ci packs we increasingly see are probably evidence of this point. It is useful to microanalyze the specific decisions (turn around now?) that lead to tragedy but the truth is, by participating in this activity, we all avail ourselves to making serious mistakes. We're only humans, after all.
I believe I now appreciate these risks and, if someone finds me out there, feel free to question my judgement but understand that I knew these might be the consequences. We don't know that the Cox's shared this attitude. My heart goes out to them; I will never lose that image of Lafayette.
Let's just keep working, on the trails, here and everywhere else to help others understand the risks involved and let them determine how to deal with them. The risk won't go away, though.
What it's left me with is that there are a multitude of risks involved, risks that can't be negated with the best of judgement. What is most frequently lacking is hikers' ability to assess or even acknowledge those risks. The summer boots and 1300ci packs we increasingly see are probably evidence of this point. It is useful to microanalyze the specific decisions (turn around now?) that lead to tragedy but the truth is, by participating in this activity, we all avail ourselves to making serious mistakes. We're only humans, after all.
I believe I now appreciate these risks and, if someone finds me out there, feel free to question my judgement but understand that I knew these might be the consequences. We don't know that the Cox's shared this attitude. My heart goes out to them; I will never lose that image of Lafayette.
Let's just keep working, on the trails, here and everywhere else to help others understand the risks involved and let them determine how to deal with them. The risk won't go away, though.
Ridgerunner
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Risks
So we agree that there are risks. But risks involve probabilities. With an increase in people (trials, in stats terminology) comes an increase in accidnents (events). There has been an important increase in winter hiking lately, and that might be part of the explanation that Peter is looking for. All events are sad nonetheless...
So we agree that there are risks. But risks involve probabilities. With an increase in people (trials, in stats terminology) comes an increase in accidnents (events). There has been an important increase in winter hiking lately, and that might be part of the explanation that Peter is looking for. All events are sad nonetheless...
RoySwkr
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I would say that the more usual problem is that an experienced leader with proper equipment drags along less experienced friend with worse equipment they don't know how to use. Friend becomes overextended either physically or emotionally and hence is more likely to be injured even if they had everything they need. Examples might be the VT school group on Lafayette a few years ago where the leader was fine but some kids got frostbite, or the AMC ice climbing trip to Baxter many winters ago when at the last minute they invited a kid with less experience and equipment to even the ropes.Mike P. said:
Group dynamics is the subject of much study. Some solo hikers are particularly careful because they know they are on their own and might be less careful in a group, but in a group the member who is best at whatever can raise issues that others might not notice. There is an old saw that once an injury occurs you are better to have been in a group, but that didn't work in the case of the guy on Clay who was killed trying to help his injured friend.
Tim Seaver
Well-known member
The Blame Game
The Cox's were doing what many people have done for the past 30 years: hiking the Falling Waters/Bridle path Loop with only day gear. It is hardly some "new and daring" phenomena spurred by a rash of radical winter hikes. To lay this tragedy at the feet of the speed hiking community is misguided and inaccurate.
The Cox's were doing what many people have done for the past 30 years: hiking the Falling Waters/Bridle path Loop with only day gear. It is hardly some "new and daring" phenomena spurred by a rash of radical winter hikes. To lay this tragedy at the feet of the speed hiking community is misguided and inaccurate.
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Tim Seaver
Well-known member
>>>I referred to a hypothetical posting, not any hike you did.
My apologies, Mark.
Somehow I thought that the part of your post that states:
"a trip report on how they did a solo hike from Carter Notch to Lonesome Lake with just a day pack and no overnight gear",
was referring to MY recent solo hike from Carter Notch to Lonesome Lake with just a day pack and no overnight gear.
I hope you understand that this statement, combined with the fact that you responded to my Hut To Hut Trip Report with similiar safety concerns, might cause me to think that somehow you were making a reference to me. Do you see how I might have made this connection, albeit in error?
Now that I know that your reference to this hypothetical hiker being a "lucky SOB" is simply part of your hypothetical hike scenario, and in no way based on actual recent events or people, I can breathe a sigh of relief. WHEW!
That must also be the case for the other "Hut to Hut" references in this thread.
My mistake. Please, don't change a thing.
My apologies, Mark.
Somehow I thought that the part of your post that states:
"a trip report on how they did a solo hike from Carter Notch to Lonesome Lake with just a day pack and no overnight gear",
was referring to MY recent solo hike from Carter Notch to Lonesome Lake with just a day pack and no overnight gear.
I hope you understand that this statement, combined with the fact that you responded to my Hut To Hut Trip Report with similiar safety concerns, might cause me to think that somehow you were making a reference to me. Do you see how I might have made this connection, albeit in error?
Now that I know that your reference to this hypothetical hiker being a "lucky SOB" is simply part of your hypothetical hike scenario, and in no way based on actual recent events or people, I can breathe a sigh of relief. WHEW!
That must also be the case for the other "Hut to Hut" references in this thread.
My mistake. Please, don't change a thing.
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Tim Seaver
Well-known member
I'm sorry if I come off a bit strong on this point, but the insinuation that the feats of speed hikers, hypothetical or not, somehow contributed to the deaths this winter is upsetting and inaccurate. That's all.
I think in the end we are all responsible the consequences of our own behavior. Whether or not we are motivated by other's accomplishments makes no difference. If I hear about some other persons great or interesting feat and it inspires me to try something that results in my injury or untimely demise, in the end is my fault not the person I may be trying to emulate.
Deleting posts ... Man, that sucks. If you're going to say something in a public forum, at least be man enough to either stand by it or man enough to admit that maybe you were wrong. This is not directed at you, Mohamed, but the other Mark who apparently caused an uproar here today and then cut and ran. Given the content of my post on page 2 of this thread, it has put me in a position of having to clarify that I'm not the Mark who made an apparently inflamatory post.
But since I'm here and already riled up, I'm going to go ahead and expand on my original line of thinking. Before I do, I should identify myself as an avid peakbagger who likes to hike solo, fast and light. I'm no Tim Seaver, but who is? As I stated in my original post on page 2, you can no more blame speed hikers and record setters for this year's deaths than you can blame Evil Kneival if someone gets killed trying to jump over the Grand Canyon on a moped. But to claim that the shift in attitude towards our smallish Northeast mountains over the past couple of years hasn't caused people to take increased risks is completely naive. People have a natural tendency to want to keep up with the Joneses. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own actions, but if anyone were to compare the overall tone and attitude of the posts on this board or the AMC board this winter as compared to three or four years ago, he or she would clearly see the increased level of risk that the average hiker is willing to embrace.
In my opinion, analyzing this years high fatality rate from a purely statistical point of view leads to only three possible logical conclusions:
A) It was a statistical blip
B) Increased winter hiker traffic has lead to increased accidents
or
C) A general shift in attitude away from heavy and safe to fast and light has caused more people to get in trouble.
I think a good case can be made for any of the above and perhaps there is a combination of all three going on. But I will stand by my original statement that there is a growing lack of respect for the dangers of our relatively insignificant mountains. This is not the fault of the speed hiking community though ... it is the fault of anyone who is not able to honestly analyze his or her own levels of fitness and experience. When you go fast, light and/or solo, you are putting all of your confidence in your own fitness, knowledge and ability. I hate the fact that four seemingly fine people lost their lives in the Whites this winter, but in order to avoid future winters like this one, we have to honestly assess what they did wrong. I'm not going to second guess anyone publically, but the facts (or at least portions of them) are out there for all of us to analyze individually.
But since I'm here and already riled up, I'm going to go ahead and expand on my original line of thinking. Before I do, I should identify myself as an avid peakbagger who likes to hike solo, fast and light. I'm no Tim Seaver, but who is? As I stated in my original post on page 2, you can no more blame speed hikers and record setters for this year's deaths than you can blame Evil Kneival if someone gets killed trying to jump over the Grand Canyon on a moped. But to claim that the shift in attitude towards our smallish Northeast mountains over the past couple of years hasn't caused people to take increased risks is completely naive. People have a natural tendency to want to keep up with the Joneses. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own actions, but if anyone were to compare the overall tone and attitude of the posts on this board or the AMC board this winter as compared to three or four years ago, he or she would clearly see the increased level of risk that the average hiker is willing to embrace.
In my opinion, analyzing this years high fatality rate from a purely statistical point of view leads to only three possible logical conclusions:
A) It was a statistical blip
B) Increased winter hiker traffic has lead to increased accidents
or
C) A general shift in attitude away from heavy and safe to fast and light has caused more people to get in trouble.
I think a good case can be made for any of the above and perhaps there is a combination of all three going on. But I will stand by my original statement that there is a growing lack of respect for the dangers of our relatively insignificant mountains. This is not the fault of the speed hiking community though ... it is the fault of anyone who is not able to honestly analyze his or her own levels of fitness and experience. When you go fast, light and/or solo, you are putting all of your confidence in your own fitness, knowledge and ability. I hate the fact that four seemingly fine people lost their lives in the Whites this winter, but in order to avoid future winters like this one, we have to honestly assess what they did wrong. I'm not going to second guess anyone publically, but the facts (or at least portions of them) are out there for all of us to analyze individually.
Ridgerunner
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Raymond
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With all the amazing accomplishments people have been doing, it's only natural for the rest of us to think "It must not be all that hard. Maybe I can do it too."
I remember being pretty gung-ho about trying Winter hiking after reading the chapters on it in "Forest and Crag" — Gee! It sounds like a lot of fun! And easy! — but I haven't really done any after all. (My partner has asthma, so she can't breathe the cold air. That's it.)
Regarding the most recent tragedy, with the couple on Lafayette, it sounds as though there may have been a micro-climate situation there. A poster above mentions that he was on Flume at the time, and able to see the snow plume on Lafayette — a clear view where he was, a whiteout just a short distance away. Remember a few years ago, the couple that spent a night (it was the day after Thanksgiving, about 1998) in a snow cave on Lafayette after getting caught in a sudden snowsquall? My son and I (and dozens of other hikers) were on Welch and Dickey that day. It did not snow at all on Welch-Dickey. Again, a different condition just a short distance away. By coincidence that day, my son and I mistakenly got off the trail and spent more than a few anxious minutes trying to decide what we should do. If there had been a squall then and there, we would have been in deep trouble.
I imagine that the man who froze to death near South Twin probably heard the weather forecast and just thought, "Eh. I've been cold before." I regularly used to ride my bicycle 15 miles to work (from four to five a.m.) when the temperature was about 0 degrees Fahrenheit. Sure it was painful at first, but once I'd warmed up, after a mile or so, it was bearable, and after I'd arrived and suitably impressed everyone (a co-worker once exclaimed "You rode your bike today?!? You must be— unusual.") I'd wonder how low I could go. "Well, I made it at minus two, maybe it'll be three below tomorrow." I once went jogging at -19; by the time I got back home (three miles later), it was -22. Hiking in the mountains, rather than jogging in one's neighborhood, could easily put one beyond the point of no return. You think it can't possibly get any worse, and it does.
I remember being pretty gung-ho about trying Winter hiking after reading the chapters on it in "Forest and Crag" — Gee! It sounds like a lot of fun! And easy! — but I haven't really done any after all. (My partner has asthma, so she can't breathe the cold air. That's it.)
Regarding the most recent tragedy, with the couple on Lafayette, it sounds as though there may have been a micro-climate situation there. A poster above mentions that he was on Flume at the time, and able to see the snow plume on Lafayette — a clear view where he was, a whiteout just a short distance away. Remember a few years ago, the couple that spent a night (it was the day after Thanksgiving, about 1998) in a snow cave on Lafayette after getting caught in a sudden snowsquall? My son and I (and dozens of other hikers) were on Welch and Dickey that day. It did not snow at all on Welch-Dickey. Again, a different condition just a short distance away. By coincidence that day, my son and I mistakenly got off the trail and spent more than a few anxious minutes trying to decide what we should do. If there had been a squall then and there, we would have been in deep trouble.
I imagine that the man who froze to death near South Twin probably heard the weather forecast and just thought, "Eh. I've been cold before." I regularly used to ride my bicycle 15 miles to work (from four to five a.m.) when the temperature was about 0 degrees Fahrenheit. Sure it was painful at first, but once I'd warmed up, after a mile or so, it was bearable, and after I'd arrived and suitably impressed everyone (a co-worker once exclaimed "You rode your bike today?!? You must be— unusual.") I'd wonder how low I could go. "Well, I made it at minus two, maybe it'll be three below tomorrow." I once went jogging at -19; by the time I got back home (three miles later), it was -22. Hiking in the mountains, rather than jogging in one's neighborhood, could easily put one beyond the point of no return. You think it can't possibly get any worse, and it does.
Warren
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I would love to see research done on this topic. Real data that looks at experience, preparation, age, group size and relationships within the group as well as the environmental factors and studies of the decision making processes. I think that would be the only way to really say if there's a pattern or not. But that's statistically. There is no equation of gear, skill, style, fitness, luck, hazards and intent that will tell you the what's how's and why's on traveling safely for a day or weeks worth of walking or running of climbing or whatever it is we internally label what we do. With the environment being such a huge variable I don't know how useful it would be.
I'm sure single minded pursuit of a goal can be judgment affecting but I don't think it's always correct to point to a style or level of experience as the sole cause of a tragedy. Things can swing in many and varied ways, the extra weight of an overnight kit can hinder as it helps. We could get killed helping a group just as alone you could limp out using just improvised materials in a 60/40 jacket. We may lack the confidence to avoid panic and get in over your head, we may freak and get out long before the threat arrives. Certainly there's a base line that you could say is safe within reason, but sports are full of tales of woe and triumph that occur when you test the current notion of limits and try something that someone says is fool hardy. You could even say that's how mountain hiking started. We don't hear about the near misses or graceful recoveries as much as we hear of the fallout of a tragedy.
The pattern this winter for me is a bitter sweet one. A lot of people doing and exploring things for the first time, a lot of really incredible ideas being executed, perhaps a new style being born. Among this there have been deaths and injuries and near misses. To me it doesn't feel related, just sad and exciting at the same time.
As for self deletion of posts, I too am uncomfortable with this. It could be argued that it reduces noise, but if you don't obliterate all traces of tangent in a thread you still have a noisy thread and often one that is difficult to understand, sometimes more so. In real life you can't and don't undo what you've said, you apologize, clarify or defend, attempting to reach a balance, interpersonal and community bonds often are built around such moments. Mark S brings up yet another problem in the deletion of posts. Anyway, as long as we have the ability to delete our posts it's a forum members right to do so.
I'm sure single minded pursuit of a goal can be judgment affecting but I don't think it's always correct to point to a style or level of experience as the sole cause of a tragedy. Things can swing in many and varied ways, the extra weight of an overnight kit can hinder as it helps. We could get killed helping a group just as alone you could limp out using just improvised materials in a 60/40 jacket. We may lack the confidence to avoid panic and get in over your head, we may freak and get out long before the threat arrives. Certainly there's a base line that you could say is safe within reason, but sports are full of tales of woe and triumph that occur when you test the current notion of limits and try something that someone says is fool hardy. You could even say that's how mountain hiking started. We don't hear about the near misses or graceful recoveries as much as we hear of the fallout of a tragedy.
The pattern this winter for me is a bitter sweet one. A lot of people doing and exploring things for the first time, a lot of really incredible ideas being executed, perhaps a new style being born. Among this there have been deaths and injuries and near misses. To me it doesn't feel related, just sad and exciting at the same time.
As for self deletion of posts, I too am uncomfortable with this. It could be argued that it reduces noise, but if you don't obliterate all traces of tangent in a thread you still have a noisy thread and often one that is difficult to understand, sometimes more so. In real life you can't and don't undo what you've said, you apologize, clarify or defend, attempting to reach a balance, interpersonal and community bonds often are built around such moments. Mark S brings up yet another problem in the deletion of posts. Anyway, as long as we have the ability to delete our posts it's a forum members right to do so.
