Taking kids into Tuckerman Ravine in bad weather

[Mattl]

Taking kids into Tuckerman Ravine in bad weather

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I just want to say that on Sunday I went into Tuckerman Ravine to ski and was blown back by how many young kids were up there, 9,10, 11 years old it seemed like. I know it's important for kids to get into the outdoors, but the weather was really dangerous in the ravine. It was beautiful at the bottom and 38 or 40, and then the temp dropped to the mid 20's at Tuck's with 40-50mile per hour sustained wind, and gusts higher, 60 foot visibility, snow, and very icy conditions. I was hiking between the hut and the ravine with my head down in the blizzard like conditions amazed at all the kids I saw at the hut going in. When I got to Hermit Lake I saw most kids going down or waiting there so I don't know if they had gone all the way or were turning back, also most I talked to were planning on going to the ravine to sled and ski. My question is, do you think its appropriate for kids to be in conditions like this in the ravine at the headwall, I was even nervous myself, and I hike 4000 footers every winter.

-Mattl

 

[TrishandAlex]

Tried to respond to this, don't know what happened.

Anyway,

I wouldn't worry about the kids too much - -the key here is that the parents most likely knew there was a hut to take shelter in.

If they had been out with no available shelter, then I'd raise an eyebrow. But that didn't seem to be the case, according to what you described.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Taking kids into Tuckerman Ravine in bad weather
I just want to say that on Sunday I went into Tuckerman Ravine to ski and was blown back by how many young kids were up there, 9,10, 11 years old it seemed like....My question is, do you think its appropriate for kids to be in conditions like this, I was even nervous myself, and I hike 4000 foots every winter.

I guess it depends on how many competent adults were with the kids, to make correct choices for the conditions.

 

[dr_wu002]

My question is, do you think its appropriate for kids to be in conditions like this, I was even nervous myself, and I hike 4000 foots every winter.

-Mattl

It's not winter anymore but it's good that you qualify your experience to us by stating you hike 4000 footers every winter.

Perhaps you just have a very low comfort threshold as compared to some of the parents and kids. This ain't K2 it's Mt. Washington. A 'lil snow wasn't gonna stop me when I was 10 or 11. The sky is falling for one person might be bliss for another.

-Dr. Wu

 

[BlackBuffalo]

If the kids were making their way towards the headwall, I'd be really concerned.

If you skied New England at a kid, you learn real quick how much cold is "enough". I think nowadays parents do too much micromanaging of their kids.

 

[Mattl]

It's still winter conditions on the mountain, and I was merely stating that this isn't my first winter hike, but thanks for your insight Dr Wu...No your right, it's not K2, its only one of the most dangerous mountains in the world for weather. The point of this thread is that the kids were going to the headwall in these conditions..

 

[David Metsky]

Some kids at that age are fine for those conditions. Some are not. I suspect the best course of action would be to leave the determination up to the parents to decide if these particular kids are prepared for it. How are we supposed to decide if it was appropriate?

 

[Maddy]

Taking kids into Tuckerman Ravine in bad weather

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I just want to say that on Sunday I went into TuckermanRavine to ski and was blown back by how many young kids were up there, 9,10, 11 years old it seemed like. I know it's important for kids to get into the outdoors, but the weather was really dangerous in the ravine. It was beautiful at the bottom and 38 or 40, and then the temp dropped to the mid 20's at Tuck's with 40-50mile per hour sustained wind, and gusts higher, 60 foot visibility, snow, and very icy conditions. I was hiking between the hut and the ravine with my head down in the blizzard like conditions amazed at all the kids I saw at the hut going in. When I got to Hermit Lake I saw most kids going down or waiting there so I don't know if they had gone all the way or were turning back, also most I talked to were planning on going to the ravine to sled and ski. My question is, do you think its appropriate for kids to be in conditions like this, I was even nervous myself, and I hike 4000 foots every winter.

-Mattl

Matti...use your own good judgment. You hike 4000 footers every winter and if you were nervous, respect that. Your gut is giving you an important message. Heed it and you won't be sorry.
As for the "others", they are responsible for their kids and they will have to live with the consequences of their actions, as will unfortunately their offspring. Safe of not, some will do it regardless and will think you a fool if you try to intervene.
Mt W may not be Everest, K2, Nanga Parbat,etc, but last I checked it does have it's share of tragedies. These are children we are talking about, not adults who are capable of making their own decisions. Most trust their parents to keep them safe. Sounds like at least some of them were turned back by their parents.
Because we get away with doing something reckless, does not make it OK. I think to turn back when the conditions are making an experienced adult nervous is a great opportunity to teach a child that mountain weather must be respected.
You can always go sliding in a safer place and return another day to enjoy your great adventure.
"40-50mile per hour sustained wind, and gusts higher, 60 foot visibility, snow, and very icy conditions."
If your adult body was having difficulty with these conditions, can you just imagine what a small 9 year would be having to contend with?
I suspect that if your young child had to be evac'd from the ravine in those conditions, you would be cited for more than a rescue.

 

[wardsgirl]

Whenever I get nervous about taking my kid into the mountains on a wintry day, I try to remember that kids can play all day outside- sledding, making forts, building a snowman, having snowball fights, etc. When I remember that they can happily spend several hours outside with no ill effects, it makes it easier to justify bringing them along on a trip, even if it may seem like dangerous weather, conditions, or a more difficult hike to a grown-up.

 

[dr_wu002]

Mt W may not be Everest, K2, Nanga Parbat,etc, but last I checked it does have it's share of tragedies. These are children we are talking about, not adults who are capable of making their own decisions. Most trust their parents to keep them safe. Sounds like at least some of them were turned back by their parents.

http://www.mountwashington.org/about/visitor/surviving.php

Not a single fatality for a person under 15 years old. In fact, only ~5% of all fatalities on Washington involve people under age 20. I suspect the kids in Tucks will be ok and everyone else needs to back off and let parents be parents. Perhaps if all of our parents took us into Tucks at an early age we wouldn't be a culture of wusses and worry warts.

I just hope that nobody dropped their packs in the col this weekend. Captain Death was upon us.

-Dr. Wu

 

[giggy]

FYI - 24 hr stats for the summit - should cover from 7am yesterday to 7am today(roughly)

Maximum Temperature: 28°F

Minimum Temperature: 15°F

Peak Wind Gust: W 57 mph

Average Wind Speed: 35.8 mph

Liquid Precipitation: 0

Snowfall: 0

typically parents know whats best for the kids - would I bring my 4 year old up there in those conditions - probably not. I don't have have any exp with 10 year olds - so can't say - but kids are pretty tough and will let you know if something is bothering them and they love an adventure. we don't know the skills of the parents - could be totally fine. In the ravine, your pretty close to an easy retreat. Treeline is right there, etc...

don't know the details so won't question anyone's parenting capabilites. The fact, that they are bringing kids up experincing the area there (instead of letting them play video games and hang on the street corner) - tells me - there is some good parenting going on. risk in everything.

matt? is it possible your over-estimating the wind speeds?

 

[Waumbek]

As testy as it's getting, this thread is having the positive effect of reminding everyone, parents in particular, that it's still winter in the mountains even if spring school breaks are upon us and the ticks are blooming down south. Personally, I'm more interested in hearing the parental strategies for kids in Tucks than in the "how I was a tough kid" stories. But maybe that's another thread, which it might be time for. Then again, we could also have a thread on just how tough a kid I was although we'd probably see one of those little locks on it pretty quick.

 

[Mattl]

It actually snowed .6 at the summit, and maybe slightly more in the ravine, but if you read todays avalanche report, you can see what the .6 did, up to 24 inch deep spots. In yesterdays avalanche report they said they thought the winds at Hermit Lake may have been higher then the summit, it can happen, especially if you get a sudden downslope on the summit. I think it was constant at 40-50 mph for the 1-2 hours I was going into the ravine and skiing, seems it may have let up a bit on my way out. It was enough to knock you off balance pretty well, and as someone said, imagine on a child. I know it is the parents decision, and I am not saying every parent is wrong for bringing their kids, some kids are really tough in the outdoors. However, there was a lot of kids, maybe 30, and it just surprised me. I wish I could post pics on here, but I don't have an online account for photos.

-Matt

 

[Maddy]

Whenever I get nervous about taking my kid into the mountains on a wintry day, I try to remember that kids can play all day outside- sledding, making forts, building a snowman, having snowball fights, etc. When I remember that they can happily spend several hours outside with no ill effects, it makes it easier to justify bringing them along on a trip, even if it may seem like dangerous weather, conditions, or a more difficult hike to a grown-up.

Wardsgirl...I could be wrong, but I don't think that we can compare kids playing out all day in the backyard to the alpine conditions in the Tuckerman Ravine described by Matti in his post. Hiking to HOJO's would be fun but beyond that, well...it's like apples and oranges.
There is no hiker safety code for the backyard, or local park, nor are there any warning signs for above "treeline" travel in these areas. I think I know the reason why. Matti said it best!

 

[rocket21]

In yesterdays avalanche report they said they thought the winds at Hermit Lake may have been higher then the summit, it can happen, especially if you get a sudden downslope on the summit. I think it was constant at 40-50 mph for the 1-2 hours I was going into the ravine and skiing, seems it may have let up a bit on my way out.

I was in the Carters yesterday and it seemed to be that it was windier driving up/down 16 than it was at the top of Carter Dome or Hight.

 

[Maddy]

http://www.mountwashington.org/about/visitor/surviving.php

Not a single fatality under 15 years old.

-Dr. Wu

And that is a very good thing.

"Do we need to have a first?"

 

[Trainwreck]

We have been taking our kids into the ravine in the spring since my oldest was 5 months old.
Our plan was always (and continues to be) Sunny= continue on to watch the activities in the ravine, cloudy/windy/snow/rain = eat at Hojos and descend.
We turned around a few years ago upon entering the ravine it suddenly clouded over and the winds picked up. My kids are teens now. Same rules apply.
Sandy

 

[Tim Seaver]

Sos

How are we supposed to decide if it was appropriate?

It appears that there are two schools of thought on that.

1. Let the parents of the children decide on what conditions are dangerous (in their judgment) and what conditions are not dangerous (in their judgment).

2. We can decide for them from the comfort of our armchair, suggesting tragic outcomes based on their supposed stupidity to go out in conditions that we think are unsafe (conditions that we can also magically judge from aforementioned armchair of infinite wisdom). And you get extra points for "Finger Wagging With Authority"

 

[dr_wu002]

And that is a very good thing.

"Do we need to have a first?"

Give me a break. Conditions were at worst moderate. Glad you weren't my parent .

-Dr. Wu

 

[mookie]

It seems like its the parents choice and not ours.
what you may feel comfortable with others may not. just like hiking without children. some people turn back when the weather turns and some keep on trucking. experience and comfort level seem to be a huge factor. we dont know these parents and children who were out in the ravine this weekend so who are we to question them?

Would much rather see people attempting a spring hike with mild winter conditions rather than sitting in front of a television or computer face spacing all day!