Thinking of buying MSR snowshoes? Think again.

[ken]

i have 2 pairs of the red MSRs and have never had a problem, i checked the date and it is "99" (before the recall) i mostly use them in spring and late fall (when you don't know weather you need them or not) they pack nice & flat when you have to carry them on your back - i always use tubbs when i know i will need them and be on them all day long since the tubbs are quieter and they are easier on your feet than the MSRs (tubbs have some flex at the pivot, MSRs are solid and hard) also all my tubbs are longer than the MSRs and work better in deep snow (i am 200 pounds) - i have used them on and around rocks when the snow stopped and started again (and i was too lazy to take them off for rocky stretches) i think they are pretty nice and try not to abuse them (but sometimes it can't be helped) since they are made out of plastic - - - (i cant even begin to figure out how many times i was up on high peaks with them since i stop counting the extra times after the list is finished) - i would recommend them for thier traction - i would not recommend them if you are "running" (especially on the downhill) since they are very short and they pivot freely, you can "plant" the tail in the snow if you lift your feet too high off the ground on the downhill (but that happens with short tubbs too).

 

[Johnnycakes]

I would like to point out a few things with regards to the MSR snowshoes.

First, perhaps the reason we here so much about MSR snowshoes failing is that a lot more people own MSRs then the other brands. I'm not sure if this is true, but I suspect that the price of the MSRs makes them more appealing than any other brand. It would be interesting for someone (but not me) to do a poll and see what the results are with regards to snowshoe ownership.

Second, when the MSRs to fail, the failure is more catastrophic in my opinion. In other words, when Atlas, Sherpas, or Tubbs break it is usually just a popped rivet and doesn't really affect the performance of the shoe. The failures I've seen with MSRs include entire decks fracturing, binding plate shearing off, frames breaking, etc. You get the idea. The MSR failures more often than not require immediate attention.

John

 

[spider solo]

I've been curious about the Havlick's. I think it would be nice to have a brand that offers a choice between wood or metal shoes . I think that a lot of snowshoes people buy never do make it to the mountains but are used recreationally in more modest terrain. I think lots of 'modern shoes' are way overkill for what many people need, but buy them because that's what is so overwhemingly offered these days.
Some shoes like the MSR's might better be described as 'traction devices' especially where people are wearing them in lieu of crampons. I do have an understanding that in some places "snowshoes" are required whether they are needed or not.
Aside from a little cord or duct tape that is all I might bring along for field repairs ...if I broke three pair in three years of one brand or style I would give up on them. Originally I bought into the idea of carrying all sorts of stuff to repair my shoes...multi tool and rivets and all that stuff and then try to convince myself I was 'travelling light' with light weight snowshoes and plastic boots as I went clomping about...now when I dig out the metal shoes and plastic boots I know I'm travelling heavy as can be.
I do have one pair of snowshoes that I could break repeatedly..they are woven with heavy fishing line...light as a feather but I don't go bringing a roll of fishing cord with me each time I wear them...if I break them, then as they say up where I got them..you'll be having a "bad day". Pure and simple as that.
I think the main ingredient for using snowshoes is....snow. Other than that we might as well call them ice shoes ,traction aids or whatever but snowshoes are for snow... wearing snowshoes on hard pack is just plain sad to see......but sometimes unavoidable.

 

[Gris]

more fuel for the fire

 

[wally2q]

Bad Batch or Design Changes

I have used my Denali's for many years - I bought mine the first year they came out. The only problem I ever had with them was the strength of the binding web material. MSR had replaced the bindings for me for free, even though it was an "heavy use / abuse related failure". They have since beefed up the material.

I've used them on climbing trips, used them for bridging rock gaps while crossing boulder fields (ie.: front and back of the shoe are supported - the middle of the shoe hangs in free air, with your weight loaded on top).

Here is the kicker: my denalis see 260 lbs (me and my pack) of load on pretty well every winter trip I go on, and that's anywhere from 4 to 10 times per year.


The original post users must be experiencing one of 2 scenarios:
1. bad material / processing batch problem at the MSR factory
2. wrong shoe (MSR now has many styles of the denalis these days - with different use intended for each: you would't go ice climbing with tennis shoes - similarly there may be different MSR denali's for different apps. the ones used may be intended for light day-trip hikes with no serious loads or terrain)

Go figure....

the wall.......

P.S. w.r.t concerns with use of plastic anything in the winter, these are the times where many plastics and composites are in fact better than metal (strength to weight ratio) even in the winter. Just like metal replaced wood, plastic is replacing metal. You might as well trust your car, because no-one makes horse buggies anymore

 

[Desalad]

Think Atlas 10 series, it's the only way to go.

REI, at least the one in Reading, MA, just upgraded their entire rental line of snowshoes to the Atlas 10 series. I'll be using a pair of 1030's in a few weeks to summit Slide Mtn, although unless it snows a lot in the next couple weeks, I probably won't need them!

 

[erd]

1. I'm presently testing the MSR Lightning Ascents for BackpackGearTest. The Catskill weather hasn't been over-obliging, so I'm heading up to the Dacks shortly. Interesting shoe, excellent traction. Obviously, I can't speak to their long-term durability, but they are impressive from a number of aspects. I'm not a MSR enthusiast otherwise, although I have had occasion to field-repair a broken hinge on a pair belonging to someone on a hike I was leading. That was uncommon--they do generally seem to be durable, but noisy. The LA is no noisier than any other AL frame shoe.

2. Northern Lites Backcountry are excellent shoes. They don't last for ever--I'm on my second pair (though they last a good long time)--but the light weight is a huge plus. They are not a true mountaineering shoe, although I have made any number of difficult ascents with them. A lot depends on technique.

3. Havlicks are also great. I have a 36 inch pair (Adirondack II?) for powder conditions. Excellent crampons. Heavy, but then it's a big shoe. Pretty good for mountaineering.

4. Sherpa is out of business. I have heard bad things about every snow shoe ever made, including Tubbs and Atlas. Folks, there's no perfection in this area. Snowshoes are subject to extreme stresses, they will eventually break.

5. I've wanted to try a pair of Ursus shoes for years. I've never been able to get them to answer a phone call or letter and last time I looked on the 'Net I couldn't find any retailers (although apparently MEC has 'em). Would the person who posted that they just purchased a pair please provide details? Or anyone else with a pair?

Ted.

 

[Tom Rankin]

I would like to point out a few things with regards to the MSR snowshoes.

First, perhaps the reason we here so much about MSR snowshoes failing is that a lot more people own MSRs then the other brands. I'm not sure if this is true, but I suspect that the price of the MSRs makes them more appealing than any other brand. It would be interesting for someone (but not me) to do a poll and see what the results are with regards to snowshoe ownership.

Second, when the MSRs to fail, the failure is more catastrophic in my opinion. In other words, when Atlas, Sherpas, or Tubbs break it is usually just a popped rivet and doesn't really affect the performance of the shoe. The failures I've seen with MSRs include entire decks fracturing, binding plate shearing off, frames breaking, etc. You get the idea. The MSR failures more often than not require immediate attention.

John

Funny, I was just telling someone they are 'over designed'. One of the rubber bindings came off. (Not MSRs fault, my fault). No problem, shoes are still snug. Also, one of the 2 rivtes that holds the tail came off, (Not my fault, it just popped off!). But, the tail is still snugly attached. There are 6 rivets that hold the plastic 'foot cup' to the metal brace. One ripped out. No problem, the other 5 are still holding the cup in place. The rubber / plastic have never given me problems, as low as -10F. And believe me, I've given these shoes a workout!

 

[Neil]

FWIW, Here's the response I got from MSR to the e-mail I sent.

Neil,
I apologize for the tardiness of this response. Due to some personnel
changes, we are currently two people short of a full work group in our
customer service department. I also apologize for your companion's poor
experience on our snowshoes. I assure you that it is not our practice
to make a product that does not perform and last. I would like to offer
to your friends the opportunity to take advantage of our lifetime
warranty on those decks so we can get them on a new pair of Denali
Classics.

As for your concerns with the durability of your own snowshoes; I don't
think that you need to worry. I will not say that your shoes will never
break (obviously this has happened), however, I will tell you that we do
not see very many of these breakages. It is true, if there is a failure
in the plastics, it will probably happen at the nose. There was one
season where our plastics manufacturer changed their plastic on us which
caused the plastic to crack in temperatures below 0 degrees C. This
would provide quite a problem with a product made to be used in cold
conditions (as I am sure you can imagine). We sent out a consumer
notification on that issue for all snowshoes made in the later months of
2001. I am an avid snowboarder and use our snowshoes all the time
without worry of my shoes breaking. I realize it could happen, but I
have that realization with all of my gear. I don't know any products
out there to be void of any breakages ever. I was recently involved
with putting 100+ miles on a pair of prototype snowshoes to make sure
that they will hold up. Recently, we had the military request a batch
on snowshoes to put miles, testing the durability of the snowshoes. We
had Marines trying to break the new Lightning snowshoes without success.
I know this doesn't directly answer your question about the Denali
snowshoes that you own, but I want to assure you that we do test our
snowshoes. We do build our snowshoes to last, and we are very concerned
when we see a high degree of failure in any one of our products.

We do see about .5% of the thousands of snowshoes we sell break in such
a manner. We realize that there are going to be a couple of decks that
leave our buildings that could break. It just happened that two of that
.5% were in your party. We apologize for that, and are always working
on ways to make a better, more reliable product. Currently, we have
developed the next generation of plastic snowshoes (the Evos), that have
a better design at the nose. I have seen less instances of failure at
this point then I have with the Classics. I believe that I have only
seen one failure in the two years we have sold those shoes.

I hope this puts you at some ease. If you have any questions please let
me know.

Eric A. Langlais
Cascade Designs
4225 2nd Avenue South
Seattle, WA 98134
www.cascadedesigns.com

 

[spaddock]

Wow. Kinda cool to get a long personalized response from a company instead of the standard "We're Sorry" mail merge.

I have a feeling they will be issuing a recall for this year's plastic just like 2001. We'll see.


-Shayne

 

[Capoken]

plastic below zero

OK, so I haven't read ALL the posts, but I gotta say, that anyone who thinks you can't use plastics at low temps DOESN"T KNOW A LOT ABOUT PLASTIC. And they certainly don't tknow anything about design and manufacturing. Quality problems happen. Period. To any brand, for any product. It's how the company deals with it that matters. I think you should let the ENGINEERS worry aobut what materials to use. And stop being a gear snob by saying that MSRs are Crap. It's simply not so. People are way too opinionated on the board!

 

[spaddock]

I think you should let the ENGINEERS worry aobut what materials to use. And stop being a gear snob by saying that MSRs are Crap.

The same Engineers who chose a plastic that wasn't suitable for zero degrees celsius?

Was the dude transferred from the water skiing department...


-Shayne

 

[Capoken]

Im saying that they specified the right plastic, but the plastic supplier may have screwed up, or the manufacturing process may have been screwed up. Everyone assumes a deign flaw when something does wrong. THat is rarely the case.

 

[spaddock]

Im saying that they specified the right plastic, but the plastic supplier may have screwed up, or the manufacturing process may have been screwed up. Everyone assumes a deign flaw when something does wrong. THat is rarely the case.

I don't think anybody really cares which stage the error occurred in. If it was a supplier error it's still MSR's problem. They are the ones who put their name on them, ultimately it's up to them. I have a hard time believing the military tested the shoes but my 160lb buddy couldn't walk into Flowed Lands on the flats. Something seems wrong with the plastics this year, especially if many others are raving about them from previous years and they have had problems in the past.

If engineers never have "design flaws" then why did they come out with the Evo Ascents? The MSR rep even stated they strengthened them up in that same spot that broke twice on the older Ascents.

The reason most people are so opinionated on this board is that it's human nature to defend the gear you own. "Hey my stuff isn't junk!".


-Shayne
(so far a happy Evo Ascent owner)

 

[ripple]

I have had my denali ascents 4 years, put many the mile on them, and never a problem. I quess sometimes things break, but a few pairs, in the same trip. Now that is odd.

 

[Capoken]

I won't get in a spat w/ you spaddock. And I don't own MSRs. BUt I am (in case you couldn't tell) a mechanical design engineer. I'm not saying that we NEVER make mistakes, as you misquoted (I make them daily) . And I'm not saying that designs don't need tweaking sometimes even after production starts. I think you are very right in stating that something seams wrong with the plastics this year. My experience has shown me that you really gotta stay on top of your suppliers sometimes, or they may "slip one by you". As I said before, it's how the company deals with its QUALITY problems that matters to me and my money. Mistakes will happen, any brand, any product.

 

[spaddock]

I won't get in a spat w/ you spaddock.

I'm not looking for a fight either. And I hope I didn't make anything personal. For that matter I'm a software developer and find bugs in my softrware, but only from time to time.

If there is a problem with the plastics then I hope this board helps uncover the problem so others won't have the same experience.


-Shayne

 

[tonycc]

As I said before, it's how the company deals with its QUALITY problems that matters to me and my money. Mistakes will happen, any brand, any product.

I had my MSR Whisperlite International stove pump fail on me last year on top of a ridge in the Daks. Made for a missed lunch, we were very lucky we had a spare stove at base camp or our trip would have been cut short.

I wrote MSR a very concerned letter, explaining how I couldn't trust a stove with an obvious design problem, the pump was made of plastic. Same experience as above, a very professional and personal reply. They vigorously defended the plastic as a safety feature, but acknowledged it had a design problem. The new pumps are redesigned, and they sent me a new one for free. I don't expect the same type of failure again, and the darn thing actually almost simmers.

IMHO, MSR is a quality outfit which is always working on improving their products. They take customer feedback very seriously and build it into their new models.

Tony

 

[Neil]

In his letter the MSR rep stated a .5 % failure rate for MSR shoes. (Not necessarily in the plastic decking alone). So out of 7 pairs you have a 3.5% chance of one failure. With the remaining 6 you have a 3% chance. The odds of the two events both occurring is 3% of 3.5% or .105% or about one in a thousand. And that's the end of it I hope. I inspected my shoes very closely and decided they were ok so we're dealing with a 1/1000th of a chance event. Or, there's a plastics problem.
Anyway, just in case, I went right out and bought some lottery tickets after making those calculations.
See y'all on the trail!

BTW, if any of you'd a been there and seen the brand new shoes break so easily you be kind of freaked out too.

 

[spaddock]

I was running the math as well. Lotto 649 is up to 9 million. That would buy a lot of snowshoes!

You're right about the "had you been there part" too Neil, everybody was like, oh crap who's next! (kinda had that song, "Another one bites the dust" in my head on the way back).


-Shayne