Thinking of buying MSR snowshoes? Think again.

[ADackR]

i had a buddy break his MSR's in the same place about 3 years ago... i did some research on them and found (what others have posted already) that MSR did a recall on that line becasue of poor construction. doesn't matter to me though as i will never buy them. even in one of the links posted earlier where it pitted the MSR to the Atlas, the article said the Atlas would prove better in rugged back country conditions.


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Bottom line: Our first choice is the MSR Denali Ascent. It offers great value. Not only does the MSR Denali Ascent have the lowest price tag in our test and outstanding versatility, it also offers outstanding performance features. The Atlas 1233 is our second choice, as a sturdy snowshoe for serious winter backpacking in deep snow. The Powder Wings warrant honorable mention for their collapsible design, a big plus when storability and transportability are a must.
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[Remix]

if you want to get technical about it

I have seen this problem occur plastic cases we buy - perfect first articles (the stuff we inspect before we hand over the check)- then slowly degrading strength and more flexure when the same force is put on the case. Some batches were better, some were worse.

The problem was traced to "regrind". Normally the plastic polymer comes in pill or puck form new from factory, its put in the mold machine, melted, and injected into the mold that makes the case (or snow shoe)

But there are inexperienced operators, or equipment that is not set up right, or warpage when not enough time is allowed for the plastic to cool back down to a case (or snowshoe). Bad parts come off the line.

Do these damaged plastic parts get chucked into the dumpster? Not usually; the plastic molder takes the pieces, grinds them up, and mixes the grindings back into pills or pucks of fresh polymer from the factory. If he puts too much "regrind" in, the mechanical properties of the finished product are compromised. The worst effects are with strong plastics that get their strength from glass fibers embedded into them.

So, I guess the point is that if you already have shoes that have are worn and have not failed, you're probably safe.

 

[Jasonst]

I have seen this problem occur plastic cases we buy - perfect first articles (the stuff we inspect before we hand over the check)- then slowly degrading strength and more flexure when the same force is put on the case. Some batches were better, some were worse.

The problem was traced to "regrind". Normally the plastic polymer comes in pill or puck form new from factory, its put in the mold machine, melted, and injected into the mold that makes the case (or snow shoe)

But there are inexperienced operators, or equipment that is not set up right, or warpage when not enough time is allowed for the plastic to cool back down to a case (or snowshoe). Bad parts come off the line.

Do these damaged plastic parts get chucked into the dumpster? Not usually; the plastic molder takes the pieces, grinds them up, and mixes the grindings back into pills or pucks of fresh polymer from the factory. If he puts too much "regrind" in, the mechanical properties of the finished product are compromised. The worst effects are with strong plastics that get their strength from glass fibers embedded into them.

So, I guess the point is that if you already have shoes that have are worn and have not failed, you're probably safe.

Good lesson on injection molding / mfg processes. I deal with this stuff also on a daily basis. One must admit, however, that it is rather bizarre that 3 pairs failed on the same trip in the same spots! Even from a .5% error basis, that's highly unlikely!

 

[TCD]

I also deal with molded plastic, and with failure investigations, every day. It's interesting that three units failed in the same spot. Could be bad material, could be a bad (short fill) mold run, could be improper cooling, could be a number of things. But before speculating on root cause, you would need to establish traceability on the three units as to their manufacturing history. Even if they were all purchased at the same store on the same day, they might originate from widely different manufacturing lots. Conversely, even if they were purchased at different stores, on different dates, they might be from the same lot.

I work in Medical Devices, so we can always determine traceability. Given that it is snowshoes that we are talking about, even with a month and year stamp, it would probably not be easy at this point to determine this. I doubt that lot traceability is maintained throughout the supply chain from MSR to the distributor, to the retailer, and then to the end user.

So were I doing the investigation at MSR, the first thing I would do would be to examine the defective units for preexisting flaws, and then check manufacturing records from the month(s) of manufacture for anything unusual. If nothing turned up, I would probably need to close the file as "exact root cause unknown."

I assume you are returning the defective units to MSR. It would be interesting to see their final response, and to see if they are able to shed any light on the failure.

 

[Remix]

Lets get together sometime and trade war stories about plastic industry!

 

[Johnnycakes]

Funny, I was just telling someone they are 'over designed'. One of the rubber bindings came off. (Not MSRs fault, my fault). No problem, shoes are still snug. Also, one of the 2 rivtes that holds the tail came off, (Not my fault, it just popped off!). But, the tail is still snugly attached. There are 6 rivets that hold the plastic 'foot cup' to the metal brace. One ripped out. No problem, the other 5 are still holding the cup in place. The rubber / plastic have never given me problems, as low as -10F. And believe me, I've given these shoes a workout!

Tom,

What I should have said is that MSR snowshoes seem to be more likely to fail seriously, rather than when they fail . . blah, blah, blah (whatever I said). . . . . You're right in that nearly all MSR gear is very well designed, and perhaps overdesigned. The MSR snowshoes can certainly tolerate a lot of abuse and can lose parts here and there and still function. However, I stand by my claim (based on stories from fellow hikers and first hand experience) that MSR snowshoes are more likely to have failures that require significant attention in the field (when compared to Tubbs and Atlas). Not that these two companies make flawless snowshoes either. Tubbs also put out a doozy of a binding a few years back; the first year they put out the Bear Hug binding. I still think it's a lousy binding when compared to the TD91.

John

 

[Adirobdack]

MSR's

I've had the MSR's for 3 years now and they're going strong. It could be the problems are with newer models. I wouldn't trade mine in for the world. I've tried Tubbs and Atlas and do not like the way the climb or descend. The MSR's feel like you 're glued to the snow. Again, the problems may be with current lines.

 

[haikr]

I love my MSR Denali's

I've been using snowshoes for the past 23 years, and professionally for the last 16 years teaching wilderness survival. I've used or been with others using a wide spectrum of snoeshoes and these are my favorites out of all of them. I've had my MSR Denali Snowshoes for several years (the stamp on the bottom say 6/98 but I'd swear I had them longer than that) and never had a problem with them. I use them extensively - I'm surprised they haven't given out on me for all the abuse I put them through. Of course like anything else, snowshoes require proper care and use, and I don't abuse them in that respect, but I am over 185# and spent lots of time standing on them with a few days worth of gear. I spent a few years guiding mountain hikes in Northern Japan, and Dec - April we were on snowshoes. Our office supplied all our customers with Atlas snowshoes and I was always trying to fix bindings on those things where rivets would pop out. My MSR's were quicker to put on, better traction, easy to use with gloves and the binding straps wouldn't freeze. They are noisy, but even if they do ever break, I'll go right out and buy another pair.

 

[hillman1]

Just so every one who reads this knows--I am the guy who had the broken snowshoe that opened the thread. MSR handled the case like champs. I did switch back to Atlas 1025's for now, but will probably purchase a pair of the evo ascents, as I really like the televator bar that aids in extended climbing.

 

[MattC]

Hillman-Glad to hear MSR stood by their stuff. I have a new pair of Denali Classics which I just took out last night for a test run. Only about an hour on a flat, but so far so good. I've got my fingers (and toes) crossed for the real test, which will probably be tomorrow.

For what it's worth, Rock and Snow here in New Paltz, NY has been renting MSR 'shoes for several years, and they claim they have never had any broken plastic. Their rental pairs definitely show a lot of scratches and general wear and tear.

Matt

 

[hillman1]

The ems where mine were purchased states that they have seen no other cases of failure such as what we experienced. I believe it is a case of a bad batch of plastic.

 

[pedxing]

In his letter the MSR rep stated a .5 % failure rate for MSR shoes. (Not necessarily in the plastic decking alone). So out of 7 pairs you have a 3.5% chance of one failure. With the remaining 6 you have a 3% chance. The odds of the two events both occurring is 3% of 3.5% or .105% or about one in a thousand. And that's the end of it I hope.

I got no dog in this fight, but I gotta quibble with the Stats. I believe you've defined the event incorrectly. The failure rate of .5% is not for a single trip. These two snowshoes failed on a single trip, and a third snowshoe showed unusual stress. At .5% pre-mature failure rate, the odds would be far lower than one in a thousand for these failures to take place on a single trip. If it were only one in a thousand, I think it would be easy just to call it bad luck. (.5% failure rate per inaugural trip would be unacceptable)

 

[skidoc22]

ascending vs. descending

Just had my Denali ascents out for their first real test this week Gothics to UWJ. They were awesome on the way up - even the shoulder of Gothics over ice due to the grip of the crampons and the televator heel. Downhill was another story. My crampon only has the front cleat not the rear facing one that I saw on the website for the new version. It may well have been technique but it was very difficult to descend without slipping in any icy place, but even where there was snow and it was a bit steep. I wonder if replacing with the newer version crampons would be worthwhile?

 

[Tom Rankin]

Just had my Denali ascents out for their first real test this week Gothics to UWJ. They were awesome on the way up - even the shoulder of Gothics over ice due to the grip of the crampons and the televator heel. Downhill was another story. My crampon only has the front cleat not the rear facing one that I saw on the website for the new version. It may well have been technique but it was very difficult to descend without slipping in any icy place, but even where there was snow and it was a bit steep. I wonder if replacing with the newer version crampons would be worthwhile?

Hey Doc,

We just spent the weekend in that same area. Everyone was wearing crampons, but I kept my brand new Denali Ascents on the whole time. One woman remarked at how proficient I was with them on ice. Maybe me, maybe the shoes, who knows ? But they did not let me down.

You mentioned the lack of the rear facing crampon. My older pair has it, but the newer pair does not. Sounds backwards from your experience. In any case, the rear facing one does not seem to stick down far enough to be really useful, IMHO.

 

[skidoc22]

new denali ascents

Tom,
The reason I mentioned the "new bindings" is because of the picture on the current website which shows the rear, albeit slightly shorter crampon. What is your secret to descending without sliding on the steeps. Do you go straightaway or sidestep? I sure was slipping and sliding much more than the upward direction.


http://www.msrcorp.com/snow/ascent.asp

 

[Tom Rankin]

Tom,
The reason I mentioned the "new bindings" is because of the picture on the current website which shows the rear, albeit slightly shorter crampon. What is your secret to descending without sliding on the steeps. Do you go straightaway or sidestep? I sure was slipping and sliding much more than the upward direction.

http://www.msrcorp.com/snow/ascent.asp

That picture shows the old model that I used to have, which was date stamped 2001. The ones I just ordered from EMS's web page do not have the 'rear' crampon. And the date stamp on the bottom is from 2004. I guess someone should tell them to update the image.

Unfortunately, the picture on EMS's web page:

http://www.ems.com/products/product...avigation/subcategory.jsp&bmUID=1105462855447

does not show the bottom.

My technique varies. I do both straight and sideways, I guess it depends on the exact terrain. Sorry that's probably not very helpful. As good as they are, they are still not as good as full crampons for pure ice.

 

[Adirobdack]

Old and faithfull

Just finished Colden with my trusted Denali's circa 2001, no problems at all. My buddy had a pair of tubbs - not sure of the model but they appeared to be the top o' the line set. He complained that for the most part, they were not as agile, but in deep snow he clearly had the advantage. So I think it comes down to some production issues with prior msr's that have been rectified, and knowing exactley what you want to achieve with your snowshoes before you make your purchase. I personally will not give up my MSR's but will be looking to buy a pair of those Tubbs for deep, powdery white stuff.

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"and those who were dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music ................" -Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[spaddock]

So I think it comes down to some production issues with prior msr's that have been rectified, and knowing exactley what you want to achieve with your snowshoes before you make your purchase.

The broken snowshoes that started this thread were all bought in 2004. So to my knowledge no recall has been made for them as of yet.


-Shayne

 

[Neil]

Yesterday I took my MSR Denali Ascents up Phelps. On the occasional steep icy pitches they were fantastic. I could have walked up the water ice we encountered last November on the Seymour slide. Doug had Atlas series 10's and he couldn't get traction the way I could.

 

[hillman1]

I was sliding straight back down ice that neil was tapdancing on. I'm seriously thinking about purchasing the evos for next season.