This land is my land...this land is your land...

[dvbl]

"We don't mind at all sharing [Baxter State Park] with others who respect the place and treat it well."


Taken from the thread about the decrease in visitors at Baxter State Park and Acadia National Park, this is a direct quote from a Maine resident (according to his/her avatar info). This quote jumped out at me for a few reasons. My first reaction, sad to say, was a bit immature: What if you DO mind sharing BSP with others? What can you possibly do about it? Make it "Mainers Only"? What if I mind sharing Rhode Island beaches with out-of-staters...I can't do a thing about it. I have zero power on this issue.

My next, and I think more important, reaction to this quote deals with the issue of how people feel about the parks, mountains, trails, etc, in their own state. Do you feel you have more of a right to use them than out-of-staters do? Does it matter if it's a city park, state park, national park/national forest? For example, the quote above clearly shows that this person feels that BSP is his to share with others. Fair enough. I've read the BSP charter, too. Many of us have. Mr. Baxter talks often of "...the people of Maine..." And it is indeed a "state" park, as its title clearly states. But the reality is this. Baxter relies heavily on out-of-state fees to stay afloat. In fact, even
collecting all those out-of-state fees doesn't seem to be enough. They might have to shorten the season. So there's the rub...you can resent the out-of-staters, but you need their money (which should be Hawaii's state motto).

New Hampshire residents...Even though it's a "National" forest, do you have a gut feeling that the WMNF belongs more to you than to others? Be honest. We can keep this civil (well, maybe).

Vermont residents...GMNF, same question?

Maine residents...Acadia, BSP? Yeah, I know BSP is a state park, but with its heavy reliance on out-of-state fees...


BTW, for the record: I love BSP, not DESPITE their strict rules, but partly BECAUSE of their strict rules.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

dvbl -

I had a similar reaction to those comments by the Maine resident, and have seen the same comments made by residents of New Hampshire towards the Whites and New Yorkers toward the Adirondacks. Probably human nature to be possessive about the public lands within one's own state.

My personal view is that public land is public land, regardless of one's residency. What varies is who manages the public land - i.e., a state authority, a federal (USFS, USPS, BLM, etc), or even a quasi-public authority like the LA Dept of Power and Water who manages much land in CA's Eastern Sierra.

Kevin

 

[giggy]

I just hike dude - never even gave this much thought to it. This is too deep for my low level of intelligence.

I am more worried about stuff like weather, condtions, and what gear to bring than some fees, etc.... - if it bothers you that much, just go elsewhere. plenty of other places to go. I will tell you what - ever notice when people come back - its not - that damn fee, that damn ranger, that damn mainer - its all about - man what a great place, no place like it, etc...

anyone who wants to go to baxter (or anyhere else) can go- some places just take a bit more planning an prep - so they have some rules, if you want to hike there - you deal with it.

I never met anyone from maine (or VT or NH or NY or Canada) who had any problems with out of staters visiting -

I think most state parks have fee's, etc.. Its cheaper than going to disneyworld or six flags, red sox game, etc....

 

[spaddock]

Do you feel you have more of a right to use them than out-of-staters do?

No. But parks in my own country/province just feel more like they are mine then when I'm abroad.

When I was out in Banff, Jasper, and Mount Robson last month I felt a lot of national pride that these fabulous places were in my country. Back home most of my peakbagging is done in New York and New Hampshire, and I always feel like a guest when I'm there. Probably because for every trip I have to formally cross a border and explain my purpose, so it's just nice to feel "at home" once in a while.

That being said, I love the fact that we get to share all these places with everybody in the world, I wouldn't want to close our parks to "out of provincers", or "foreigners". On my dayhike around Mount Robson I met people from all over Europe and it was great.


-Shayne

 

[arghman]

New Hampshire residents...Even though it's a "National" forest, do you have a gut feeling that the WMNF belongs more to you than to others? Be honest. We can keep this civil (well, maybe).

No personal opinion, and as a NH resident I don't care, but I do think that local residents in the area have some claim for this; land ownership is always a "neighbor" issue. WMNF owns a huge chunk of land in many towns in northern NH. In some towns (e.g. Waterville Valley, Lincoln, Benton) it is the overwhelming majority landowner. This leads to a couple of issues:

1) Property / other taxes -- IIRC, the WMNF is tax-exempt from local/state property taxes, but makes Payments In Lieu Of Taxes (PILOT) which are kind of a substitute thing. Not sure how the payment scale gets set, but if a town's property taxes go up faster than PILOT, it means the WMNF ends up with a smaller share of the costs of community services (as compared with the land being owned privately). Ditto for timber taxes, I'm not sure if WMNF pays any timber tax to local communities (vs. private landowners which are required by state law to pay 10% of stumpage value at the time of the timber cut).

(if someone could clarify how PILOT works, please do)

2) Land availability -- if Town A has a bunch of commercial land, and Town B's land is locked up in WMNF, then Town A will have much higher potential to boost its commercial tax base, whereas Town B will get left behind. (works both ways though, I'd rather live in town B)

3) land use impacts -- lots of traffic to get to/from trailheads and parking areas sometimes. Think of Lincoln and the Kanc during leaf-peeping season. (also works both ways, brings in tourism $$)

In any case the WMNF is a neighbor. Hopefully a good neighbor. I think for this reason the WMNF (similar thoughts w/ other federal/state owned public land) should have an increased level of involvement/communication/perks/etc with local residents than with, say, a busload of tourists from Arkansas who come to visit. E.g. WMNF could make parking passes available through local town halls at a reduced rate with proof of residency; at the very minimum the district rangers or their reps should be talking to the local town boards to stay good neighbors. WMNF consists of large and complex-shaped parcels of land with a huge boundary, and if the neighbors are on good terms then they can help keep trails open, watch for suspicious activity, etc.

 

[dvbl]

No personal opinion, and as a NH resident I don't care, but I do think that local residents in the area have some claim for this; land ownership is always a "neighbor" issue. WMNF owns a huge chunk of land in many towns in northern NH. In some towns (e.g. Waterville Valley, Lincoln, Benton) it is the overwhelming majority landowner. This leads to a couple of issues:

1) Property / other taxes -- IIRC, the WMNF is tax-exempt from local/state property taxes, but makes Payments In Lieu Of Taxes (PILOT) which are kind of a substitute thing. Not sure how the payment scale gets set, but if a town's property taxes go up faster than PILOT, it means the WMNF ends up with a smaller share of the costs of community services (as compared with the land being owned privately). Ditto for timber taxes, I'm not sure if WMNF pays any timber tax to local communities (vs. private landowners which are required by state law to pay 10% of stumpage value at the time of the timber cut).

(if someone could clarify how PILOT works, please do)

2) Land availability -- if Town A has a bunch of commercial land, and Town B's land is locked up in WMNF, then Town A will have much higher potential to boost its commercial tax base, whereas Town B will get left behind. (works both ways though, I'd rather live in town B)

3) land use impacts -- lots of traffic to get to/from trailheads and parking areas sometimes. Think of Lincoln and the Kanc during leaf-peeping season. (also works both ways, brings in tourism $$)

In any case the WMNF is a neighbor. Hopefully a good neighbor. I think for this reason the WMNF (similar thoughts w/ other federal/state owned public land) should have an increased level of involvement/communication/perks/etc with local residents than with, say, a busload of tourists from Arkansas who come to visit. E.g. WMNF could make parking passes available through local town halls at a reduced rate with proof of residency; at the very minimum the district rangers or their reps should be talking to the local town boards to stay good neighbors. WMNF consists of large and complex-shaped parcels of land with a huge boundary, and if the neighbors are on good terms then they can help keep trails open, watch for suspicious activity, etc.

Arghman, thanks for a very thoughtful answer to a question I didn't articlate very well. Good stuff.

 

[SteveHiker]

I never met anyone from maine (or VT or NH or NY or Canada) who had any problems with out of staters visiting -

never?

you must not get out much.

 

[MadRiver]

My house abuts a WMNF swimming hole, which used to be known only to the locals, but three years ago they placed a huge WMNF Day Use Area sign at the foot of my/their driveway (My driveway is WMNF land and I need a special use permit to use it). In WMNF’s defense they did ask if I minded the sign. Although I wasn’t thrilled about it, I didn’t feel that I could tell them what to do with their own property.

The sign has increased traffic, yet I haven’t experienced any negative aspects to the sign. Occasionally, I will get someone walking up onto my lawn from the river thinking that private property doesn’t apply to them. After politely explaining the concept, they usually will respect my privacy.

Given our proximity to the swimming hole, we do foster a small ownership viewpoint, especially when we pick up trash at the end the weekend, yet we have learned to live with the increased traffic and the occasional trespasser. So far, I haven’t had to use the shotgun.

 

[Paradox]

In any large population of people like a state you will get a certain number (20%?) who feel somesort of entitlement to the area. Just like some people at work can be very territorial. They sport bumper stickers and tee shirts with snarky slogans, and other such antisocial, territorial stuff.

Having said that: 80% or so are okay with having new people around. They want to be around people just for the sake of being around new people, and that all benefits from social behavior can't be measured in dollars. Personally, I am tickled pink when I meet someone new on the trail or skilift from Mass, Vt, or NJ and they tell me what a great state New Hampshire is.

 

[MadRiver]

never?

you must not get out much.

My favorite bumper sticker was on a local’s truck that read “Welcome to New Hampshire, now leave.”

 

[spaddock]

My favorite bumper sticker was on a local’s truck that read “Welcome to New Hampshire, now leave.”

Or the t-shirts in Boulder Colorado. Boulder's Full Please Leave.


-Shayne

 

[Pig Pen]

Here's a deal for you: Please come to Vermont and hike and spend money, I in turn will come to your state and hike and spend money (If it has some 3000 footers).

 

[chomp]

My house abuts a WMNF swimming hole, which used to be known only to the locals, but three years ago they placed a huge WMNF Day Use Area sign at the foot of my/their driveway (My driveway is WMNF land and I need a special use permit to use it). In WMNF’s defense they did ask if I minded the sign. Although I wasn’t thrilled about it, I didn’t feel that I could tell them what to do with their own property.

The sign has increased traffic, yet I haven’t experienced any negative aspects to the sign. Occasionally, I will get someone walking up onto my lawn from the river thinking that private property doesn’t apply to them. After politely explaining the concept, they usually will respect my privacy.

Given our proximity to the swimming hole, we do foster a small ownership viewpoint, especially when we pick up trash at the end the weekend, yet we have learned to live with the increased traffic and the occasional trespasser. So far, I haven’t had to use the shotgun.

I am pretty sure that I know exactly where this is and I knew about it before the sign went up. I am not a local, but a friendly local told me about it a few years back. I am glad to hear that you are living ammicably with the increased traffic and that most people are respectful of your property and privacy.

 

[giggy]

never?

you must not get out much.

nah - I do

I just must be a hell of a likable guy then

 

[marty]

Personally, I am tickled pink when I meet someone new on the trail or skilift from Mass, Vt, or NJ and they tell me what a great state New Hampshire is.

I strongly agree with Paradox on this. A lot of this depends on how the out-of-state visitor acts. If you are enthusiastic and excited about the state you are visiting, you will likely get a warm reception. They are generally proud of where they live and really enjoy hearing about how you like it. If you act rude or superior, expect a negative reaction.

Once I witnessed an event at South Arm Campground in Andover, ME in 1991. A Massachusetts camper asked the campground owners if they had an ATM machine. They politely said no, and that the nearest ATM was 40 minutes away in Rumford. His rude response was, "Get with the 20th Century!" They did not argue, but became very cold to him in filling out his campground reservation. He probably attributed this as a Mainer disliking out-of-staters.

 

[Mad Townie]

An in-state resident doesn't have any greater "right" to use a public facility than someone "from away." On the other hand, an in-state resident has every right to feel proud of a governor who would preserve such a gem as Baxter Park, of a state that would continue that preservation and protection, and of the people, most if not all from Maine, who work there. A few of us even volunteer at the Park from time to time, though I figure some volunteers are probably not Maine residents. Being proud of one's state (or country) doesn't mean that one disrespects all others.

Maybe my first mistake was in assuming that everyone would understand the humor in the "Mainer" vs. "from away" comments. It's a way many people here have of poking fun at ourselves.

Acadia is a national park, and most Mainers are grateful to ALL the citizens of the nation for its existence and preservation. We also really appreciate it when similar sentiments are expressed to us about Baxter by people who use it. Those sentiments are not required, but they sure are appreciated.

 

[sapblatt]

Once I witnessed an event at South Arm Campground in Andover, ME in 1991. A Massachusetts camper asked the campground owners if they had an ATM machine. They politely said no, and that the nearest ATM was 40 minutes away in Rumford. His rude response was, "Get with the 20th Century!" They did not argue, but became very cold to him in filling out his campground reservation. He probably attributed this as a Mainer disliking out-of-staters.

That is a riot - if the guy was so worried about modernity why is he camping?

 

[lumberzac]

There are a few areas in the Adirondacks that there are very strong feeling of ownership to them, mainly because these are places that my family has enjoyed visiting for at least 4 generations. I at times feel a bit of that resentment to people from out-of-state, generally when I see someone abusing these areas (it’s not always someone from out of state causing the damage, but when it is does make me angry, I doubt they would like me doing the same in their state). On the other hand, I take great pleasure in showing someone from a different area what my region has to offer and enjoy seeing what other areas have to offer.

 

[Neil]

When I first began hiking in the Adirondacks I was very much aware of the fact that I was a guest on foreign soil. Moreso because I mostly spoke french with my wife and kids. I was very sensitive to the potential "resentment factor" and was relieved and very pleased to never detect even the slightest bit. Upstate New Yorkers rock!

Having hiked the beejeesus out of the Dacks over the past couple of years I feel more and more at home there and consider the borders between countries and states to be insignifigant. It's ALL our land and we all need to be mindfull of it's fragile beauty.

 

[Puck]

It's ALL our land and we all need to be mindfull of it's fragile beauty.

I have been both, an out of state visitor and a local in the White Mountain area. As a local I worked in the restaurant business and could not get out to enjoy the area. I missed the connection with the landscape. I was really missing out.

I think those who hike, do trail work, donate, pay fees etc have a more intimate connection with the mountains. It is thiers to take care of. Bertold Brecht said the land should go to the caretakers.