Truth Time: Could you survive 24 hours?

[jessbee]

Panic can be a powerful force to overcome...
Having the inner strength to deal with adversity and maintain a clear head is by far the most important piece of gear anyone will ever carry.

Bingo. Emergency gear is wonderful to have along, but if you don't have the mind to use it appropriately, or deal with the rush of emotions that comes with being injured or lost or both, then you're done for. A good combination of equipment and brainpower is the best emergency kit. Some folks with little gear but a strong mental ability to deal with dangerous situations have done well. And vice versa: some people have the materials they need to survive but don't know how to handle themselves. I've met so many people who own GPS units and don't know how to use them

I've been in a handful of survival situations and have spent 2 unplanned nights in the woods--these mountains don't mess around--having a clear head is the best way to survive. I suppose you can train yourself to have this mindset, and some people are better at it than others. I find that I am pretty calm when I'm out alone, and if I'm with a few other people in a panic it is easy for me to become the leader and work to de-escalate the situation. Not as easy in a large group IMO.

And I'd like to echo the advice given to "test" your ability to survive. All that stuff you pack "just in case"--if you never use it, see how it works, etc...then it's going to be more difficult for you to manipulate that stuff under pressure in a real situation. I took an overnight trip once with a goal of testing out all those gadgets I'd been packing and reading about, and now I feel much more confident that I can use them if need be. Try starting a fire in super wet conditions. See how warm that bivy bag really feels. Try bandaging up a fake injury. Figure out multiple uses for the things you have in your pack. It's a great exercise.

 

[Tim Seaver]

... Now, if you are fortunate enough to be one of those that are in the prime of your life and in the top 10% of physical condition I can tell you I remember those times. I had got myself out of many situations by brute force in and out of the army. Many others have learned over time that you may not always be able to get yourself out of a situation by brute force. This is called experience and seeing the larger picture. For those of us who fall into that category we use planning, resources and our brain.

I like to think that even trail runners use their brain once in awhile Especially us over the hill 40-something geezers who are NOT in their 10% "prime"!

For what it's worth, it really isn't that difficult to fit sufficient survival (not comfort) gear for most into a hydration pack that is light enough to run with. I almost always carry light rain gear, warm layers, and a fire starting kit. Familiarity with the area you are running with (water sources, bailout points, cell reception, etc.) , an understanding of what your own limits are, and a willingness to turn back if something doesn't feel right are especially important.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I like to think that even trail runners use their brain once in awhile Especially us over the hill 40-something geezers who are NOT in their 10% "prime"!

For what it's worth, it really isn't that difficult to fit sufficient survival (not comfort) gear for most into a hydration pack that is light enough to run with. I almost always carry light rain gear, warm layers, and a fire starting kit. Familiarity with the area you are running with (water sources, bailout points, cell reception, etc.) , an understanding of what your own limits are, and a willingness to turn back if something doesn't feel right are especially important.

Sorry in advance for the length.

I didn’t want this to become a “run screaming from the area, we are all going to die thread”. That isn’t really what this is about and clearly some people who have done very contrary things still have managed to survive. Between 1999 and 2001 64 people died in the WMNF. Most died from drowning. The next largest recognized category died from cardiac related events. Only 2 died from hypothermia directly. Eight died from blunt trauma and one each from avalanche and penetrating trauma. We should also not misunderstand the statistics. Simply because so few people died from hypothermia/trauma/avalanches may say a lot more about the USFS/F&G and SAR groups in the area than about the lack of danger or potential for death from these events. Your treatment and prevention of these potential life threats before, during and after for yourself and those you are with will clearly impact the outcomes. Doug, if you want to speak on this its up to you but I suspect you might have some useful input?

The question presented by Tim (BHSF) was a difficult question to ask so to get only a yes or no answer. Carrying the essentials and geting some local knowledge like what Tim S. says is easy to do. The things that it allows you to do is basic. Do you have the knowledge or ability to make fire? Do you have the material or knowledge to make a shelter? Your shelter begins with what you wear. Redundancy of important items is needed. The army has what it calls the rules of one and it goes like this one is none, and two is one, and three means you have one for a friend. Food isn’t that important but it can be a morale booster. You can live 3 weeks without food. Only 3 days without water though. Yes these are generalizations but useful. Can you acquire and purify water? If you can’t purify it will you still drink? Should you? How much easier are these things going to be accomplished if you are injured? Fire isn’t always needed either but since the beginning of time it also is a morale booster. Shelter, whether just your clothing or an actual structure may make the difference between life and death.

What causes death is listed in the rules of threes (I know lots of rules with funny names ):

Three Seconds to bleed to death
Three Minutes without air (drowning, choking etc.)
Three Hours without shelter
Three Days without water
Three weeks without food.

So I’ll tell you what I keep in my daypack that I always carry later for those that are interested and you can have a sniggle but for now the minimum essentials are probably very close to the 10 essentials.

Map
Compass
Lighter (I have mini Bic lighters scattered throughout my packs and clothing.) Can you imagine what our forebears just 200 years ago would have given for a bic lighter? 500 years ago they would have burned you at the stake and probably thrown the lighter in with you.
Knife
X-Large 45 gallon garbage bags 2 or 3
Rain gear
Wool or fleece extra layer
Water container
Abilty to purify water. Chemically/filtering/boiling. Most anything you can contract in the northeast in the water can be cured. So if you don’t have the ability to purify your water you still need to drink.
Whistle
Small led light.

I know there are eleven things. This list is not inviolable. Many people may want to switch things in or out or add additional items.

Anyway for a laugh I’ll try to take some pictures of my daypack and contents and list what is in it a little later.

FWIW,
Keith

 

[weatherman]

Wow. While the "lost hiker" threads are driving me absolutely crazy, this is one to print, copy, and give to my son's Scout troop as discussion material along with the "stay put, stay dry" rules. Great stuff!

Weatherman

 

[Whiteman]

Dislocated Shoulder? That's kid's stuff!

Actually, it wasn't so much the first time I did it, but my buddies and I managed to work it back in pretty quickly without too much trauma. The next time 'round I was out by myself, konked my head, and when I shook that off I realized the old shoulder was out of joint again. It took 30 seconds to get back in by myself (grabbed small tree about shoulder height--which I achieved by crouching down after grabbing it--leaned back gently--arm is now straight out in front--gave a little wiggle and POPped it right back in).

The first time was just luck, leaning out and distracting the arm just felt much better than lying there in agony, and that little push from my buddy finished it off.

The second one was a bad one, tore up the labrum and required surgery. Before it was done I was out hiking, Allen, solo, and it popped out after an inconvenient move on the descent. Having shredded the joint, it was pretty easy to get it in and out, though it never really felt that good when it was out.

So . . . basic first aid is sure handy to know. It's amazing what you can learn about dislocations and stuff with a little googling, and it really handy to know (though I hope you never have to try).

As far as the main question goes, I might be a little thirsty, but 24 hours should never be a problem. My backup communication is a small ham radio.

Cheers

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Just for the record, there are other threads which contain items for survival, contents of packs, how to make fire in a downpour, etc. This one was primarily to inquire how prepared we really are, and in so doing extrapolate the degree of unpreparedness of the more casual WMNF visitor...


Tim

 

[DougPaul]

This one was primarily to inquire how prepared we really are, and in so doing extrapolate the degree of unpreparedness of the more casual WMNF visitor...

You may be talking about two completely different species.

Once upon a time, I invited a friend on the Lafayette--Falling Waters loop. When I started listing gear, including rain gear etc, her response was "Why be so negative?"...

The serious hikers realize that if they keep on hiking, they are going to encounter bad weather, are likely to have a problem sooner or later, and might as well be prepared (or remember the time that they weren't prepared ). I think the causal hiker may simply view a hike as a visit to an outdoor amusement park. Thinking about what might go wrong might "rain on their parade"...

Doug

 

[timmus]

I say no to '' can you always survive 24 hours''

I say I don't know to your scenario.

All I can say is this : when I leave for a hike I prep myself the best I can, but there's always some stuff missing and some other stuff I pack for nothing.

The situations are so different from one hike to another, changing weather, body shape, lost items, weird encounters, falling trees, animal attacks and other surprises.

I just go and see what will happen. You just never know, and this is the fun of it

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Survive

This has been a great thread, very interesting to see what others think and are prepared for. I seldom hike alone, almost always with my wife and dog.

We carry enough gear to hopefully get us through 24 hours, though we've never been in this predicament. Again, it all depends on the injury. I have never been seriously injured on the trail. I have been injured playing hockey, though. I know, what has that got to do with anything? Just that I think a persons mindset determines if they will survive. As a goalie I have been crashed into and had a torn miniscus where I couldn't get off the ice without help. Would I have survived 24 hours in the woods? Unknown. In another "crash the net" scenario I separated my shoulder resulting in my popping it back in and finishing the game. I continued to play for several weeks before the pain was too much and I finally went for an MRI. I had torn the rotator cuff and labrum. I have not had surgery. My mindset was "I can still skate and play, this isn't so bad". I would have survived the 24 hours with that injury.

My point is, depending on the injury, one can suck it up and survive. Of course, then the weather becomes the determining factor. I agree with other posters, it is probably a good idea to put yourself in a controlled situation to learn what you have to do to survive.

Someone earlier in the thread said they would panic less if it were them, and not someone else in the group. I tend to agree. I will do whatever I have to to get myself through it, but what do I do if it's my wife?

Twice I have had this test. Once we got soaked on the long hike out on the Rocky Branch. Despite having a light, breathable raincoat, my wife was hypothermic when we stopped. Cold and soaked myself I had to convince her that the way to get warm was to get out of the wet clothes and into dry clothes and the sleeping bag. She argued and fought about getting out of the wet clothes. "I'll freeze." A few hours later she couldn't thank me enough. Recently she turned her ankle on a wet root at the base of South Hancock. After rolling around in pain and waiting for the initial wave of nausea to pass, she got up, beat me to the top, across to North Hancock and back down. The whole time she was rolling around I was like," How am I going to get her out of here?" It's good to play these scenarios out in your mind so you'll know how to react if the situation arises.

Sorry, I just went on and on, didn't I?

KDT

 

[grog]

50 degrees and rain, throw in some fog, 50 mph wind gusts and a little hale and it sounds like my favorite hike. I always bring a poncho, WT hoodie, rope, compass, three lites( green, white and red so I can have a nice lite show) in my day pack so I know I can survive 24 hours. Considering it's raining there will be plenty of water. Now that I'm clearing trails I also bring a folding saw and hatchet, which would also be good if I get into an Aron Ralston situation.

grog

 

[sierra]

Wow. While the "lost hiker" threads are driving me absolutely crazy, this is one to print, copy, and give to my son's Scout troop as discussion material along with the "stay put, stay dry" rules. Great stuff!

Weatherman

ok Im confused, how will you get out of the woods if you "stay put" that is not advice I would ever give anyone, you should stabalize then figure out how to "get out". I see there are 2 schools of thought out there, the wait till sar comes to carry me out group and the Ill get out myself group, btw Im in the latter, sar guys can stay home and watch tv in my case.

 

[HLLM]

Yes

Whenever we go into the woods, we take enough gear and supplies to last at least an additional 24 hours - for whatever reason. It makes me a bit heavy and slow, but I'm confident on getting out. Being responsible for my wife and two kids on the trail has kept me cautious.

 

[John H Swanson]

Yes, but

(sorry for my typically French response)

As I get older and accumulate enough years and miles of hiking to qualify for old timer status, I'm getting awefully tired carrying around all this emergency gear. Expecially when it never gets used. Boy Scouts may be great for alot of things but the training only increases your packweight.

Surviving for 24hrs can be done in many circumstanses without a 20+ pound pack. I still lug around a mountain of gear in winter but I really started pairing down in summer. I downsized to a total pack weight of 6 pounds before food and water and I still carry what I need for 24hrs when I'm wearing shorts and a teeshirt.

Surviving depends on many things besides whats in your pack. I think confidence is far more important than good equipment. And the best way to have confidence is to practice. When you have an experience "surviving" some situation then you enter the same situation knowing you can survive it. I've gone out for a day hike and spent the night. I've gone for a 3 day backpack and forgot all the utencils and knives. I've navigated many off trail trips without compass. I've slept under a tarp through a hurricane (that would be "David" around 1980). So when I find myself under a pine tree in the rain wearing a 33 gal contractors garbage bag stuffed with leaves I won't doubt my future. You should not either.

John Muir would hop over the back fence and spend days exploring the Sierras with little more than a coat, a bag of oats, and a cup...more importantly he enjoyed it.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

(sorry for my typically French response)

As I get older and accumulate enough years and miles of hiking to qualify for old timer status, I'm getting awefully tired carrying around all this emergency gear. Expecially when it never gets used. Boy Scouts may be great for alot of things but the training only increases your packweight.

Surviving for 24hrs can be done in many circumstanses without a 20+ pound pack. I still lug around a mountain of gear in winter but I really started pairing down in summer. I downsized to a total pack weight of 6 pounds before food and water and I still carry what I need for 24hrs when I'm wearing shorts and a teeshirt.

Surviving depends on many things besides whats in your pack. I think confidence is far more important than good equipment. And the best way to have confidence is to practice. When you have an experience "surviving" some situation then you enter the same situation knowing you can survive it. I've gone out for a day hike and spent the night. I've gone for a 3 day backpack and forgot all the utencils and knives. I've navigated many off trail trips without compass. I've slept under a tarp through a hurricane (that would be "David" around 1980). So when I find myself under a pine tree in the rain wearing a 33 gal contractors garbage bag stuffed with leaves I won't doubt my future. You should not either.

John Muir would hop over the back fence and spend days exploring the Sierras with little more than a coat, a bag of oats, and a cup...more importantly he enjoyed it.

Everyone has a comfort zone in the wild (and everywhere else). The bigger that comfort zone is, is usually related to how much they know about the environment that they are in. Most survive very well in the city with nothing but a wallet. Most people aren't comfortable enough to spend several overnights in the woods with nothing but a knife and firesteel but it certainly can be done. The more you know typically the less you have to carry. But, there is a difference between just surviving and being slightly comfortable. By the way I carry several 45 gallon heavy duty leaf bags. Much roomier and can be cut in half to make a roof on a shelter.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

One item to factor in is that, if you have to stay out for an unplanned night, you are not likely be at your best... Most likely, you will at least be tired and perhaps hungry and dehydrated, but if injured, you may also be in shock.

Doug

 

[SherpaKroto]

Let's be honest with ourselves. The question is could we ALWAYS survive 24 hours? The only answer is no. There are too many variables involved to be so black and white on this. It's a lot tougher to spend an unexpected night out than you'd think until you have to do it.

 

[WhiteMTHike]

I voted YES. I figure what the heck, I survived combat so as long as nobody is shooting at me....

 

[Mike P.]

As Sherpa K said, there is no B&W answer

Survive at night during summer with no injuries? Some people do hikes that are longer than that & require midnight starts or 2AM to 10PM days. (Hut Traverses, Pemi Loops, etc., (do you mean sitting in one spot for 24 hours?) Yes. some people here did a winter 3 Bonds in a day hike that took 26 hours, all lived

Survive with a broken femur & hip, that I break in fall just prior to sunset & there is lots of bleeding. It's in January on a -10 day which becomes a -30 night, probably not. (read NO)

Not drinking water because you think it may have giarda is silly. While filtering or other purification is preferrable, passing out, or suffering severe dehyration is dangerous Don't know how long it would take to get the unpleasant symptoms but it would not ne immediately upon touching your lips.

Fainting or passing out while on a ridgeline, a rocky trail or crossing a brook may lead to a fatal injury, how many days until you can't drink enough tainted water to offset the water loss through diarrhea? Stomach cramps, uncomfortable, embarrrasing & messy you bet but deadly no

We live in a small part of the country when you only consider 24 hours? What's 24 hours get you in parts of Alaska?

 

[adkleaddog]

No injury...24 hrs, YES, been there, done it ONCE..

I'm always prepared to spend "time" if I must, but so far...so good!

 

[Rols]

I solo a lot and I have a conservative approach to hiking. My pack, even when day hiking in the summer, is always well stocked. I carry the weight all of the time so my legs are use to it. I carry at least 2 extra layers, nesbit stove, nylon tarp, water proof bivy, ensolite pad, extra food, first aide supplies, filter straw. I feel confident that I would survive but I would be happy to have to never use any of it. I view the equipment not only for use for myself but also for others in need that I might encounter on the trail.