unhiking

[Grayjay]

It's interesting how bushwhacking a trailless moutain and bushwhacking a trailed mountain can be almost like two different things. "Leaving the trails" implies sport. Ascending a "daunting terrible" peak, like the early explorers, without the help of trails, can imply a more utilitarian or scientific purpose.
There would certainly be no 4000 footer club without the road access.
So no roads or trails is a complete paradign shift.
In the end, people being content with themselves is the real challange.

 

[Pig Pen]

Please count me among the low-life car drivers who are glad that we can get from Littleton to North Conway in less than 4 hours.

I'm all set for trails and roads. I wouldn't add any and wouldn't remove any.

I also confess to occasionally enjoying tourist watching on top of Mt. Washington.

If you want a roadless pass try Carrigain Notch, Zealand Notch, or Hancock Notch.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

It's really sad that people can't have differences of opinion without others taking it as a personal affront.

By the way, I've been to Carrigain, Zealand and Hancock Notch (and several others) and the stark, roadless, beauty is what I find attractive.

KDT

 

[Pig Pen]

It's really sad that people can't have differences of opinion without others taking it as a personal affront.

By the way, I've been to Carrigain, Zealand and Hancock Notch (and several others) and the stark, roadless, beauty is what I find attractive.

KDT

I guess I am the culprit here. I would rate my comment as snarky, or maybe sarcastic. I don't see this as any reason to think that I took anything as a personal affront.

You have to admit that proposing the removal of large sections of Rts 302, 93, and 16 is pretty radical and difficult to take seriously, and could be seen as an invitation for snarky, smart allecky type of responses.

 

[dug]

Edited: Changed my mind. I'm staying out of this.......

 

[Roxi]

I apologize for the drift here, but I agree with those who say remove the roads. I have long wished that the only way through Franconia, Crawford and Pinkham Notch was by foot.KDT

With all due respect, Kevin, and I DO respect you, comments like that make those of us who live and work up here above the notches feel dismissed, as if our day-to-day needs aren't worth as much consideration as those folks who view the White Mountains as their personal playground. Not everyone up here is on vacation. And I am personally grateful that there are roads to get between the southern end of the state where my daughter lives, and my home and job up here.

I am not trying to offend anyone, and I apologize if I have. Like you, I enjoy hiking up here and appreciate all that this area offers, but I am tired of reading posts about how things should be up here from people who don't live up here. And I used to be one of you! Then I moved up here and got a whole different perspective. When someone remarked a few months ago that no one should be upset by people drivng 20 mph up here because afterall, "we're all on vacation up here," I bit my tongue instead of speaking up and reminding folks that some of us live and work up here. I drive to five different towns, sometimes all in a single day, as part of my job, and while I don't mind someone driving slower and taking in the scenery, it would be nice if they were considerate enough to pull over and let those of us who are working that day to get to where we need to be.

One of the few folks whose opinion I value a great deal when he speaks of how things are and should be up here is peakbagger, because he actually lives up here and knows the long history of the north country. And while I do know that your comment wasn't meant to offend, and certainly there is no danger of any of their roads up here going away, I do wish folks would take a moment and think beyond themselves when they make comments about how things should be up here, whether it's more snow, or fewer roads, or how fast people should drive. Come live up here for a few years before deciding how things should be for those of us who do.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

It's cool!

Sorry I touched some raw nerves by stating what I wished could be. I never "proposed" anything, just stated I wished things could be that way. I'm sure some couldn't get past my first paragraph because it rubbed them the wrong way, but my second paragraph stated:

"I know I have drifted from the original intent of this thread, and if I were to go on about the things I would like to see removed from the mountains I would be treading on some extremely controversial (and maybe sacred to some) territory. That said, I would like to see the mountains returned to the way they were before they became a for-profit attraction. I know, I'm dreamin'."

I certainly understand the reality is that it cannot be. Is there nothing in the world you wished could be different?

Yeah, I'm a dreamer. Sorry I ruffled some feathers, but I see the mountains going the way of southern NH before much longer. There is plenty here in the south not to like, and from my perspective it's getting worse all the time. It's spreading like cancer and I don't particularly want it to reach the mountains, but I don't see anything I can do to stop it.

If I could I'd live above the notches. I'd live so far in the woods I wouldn't have internet so nobody would ever have to read about how I wished the world could be. If I'm lucky enough to live until I retire I'll do just that, then I can be on the other side of the coin.

You're right, it is just my playground, for now. People have to live and work and visit their relatives. I just long for a simpler time. A time when you rode the train from Littleton to North Conway for under a dollar in about the same time you could drive. A time when you weren't paying $3+ for gas to get you from here to there. A time when all this crap wasn't important and people just got along and helped each other. Yep. Still dreamin'.

I just don't think it's such a bad dream. Didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

KDT

 

[dug]

"A time when you rode the train from Littleton to North Conway for under a dollar in about the same time you could drive. A time when you weren't paying $3+ for gas to get you from here to there. A time when all this crap wasn't important and people just got along and helped each other."

TB was running rampant. Polio vaccine was not found yet. The area was a wasteland with slash everywhere and hillsides being ripped apart. Hotel fires were commonplace. Food storage was darn near impossible.

It's the price of progress.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Ahhh!

I knew you couldn't stay out! It's only a dream, only a dream...

I'm aware that things sucked then, maybe even more than now. Is what we have now really progress? There's no work, war, soaring prices, crashing markets. Big companies are sucking us dry. Insurance companies and lawyers make decisions everyday that control the way we live. Drug manufacturers choose who lives and dies by how much money and insurance they have. If my kids ever own a home it will probably be a foreclosure.

Well, it wasn't my intention, but I seem to have successfully hijacked this thread. Sorry! I'll keep my mouth shut next time. Funny, most people who know me accuse me of being too much of a realist, and here I'm being castigated for being a dreamer.

KDT

 

[bubba]

Ahh... you'd think that this post was placed in a WMNF specific domain!

Don't tell anyone I'm saying this, but if you want to experience some real wilderness, sans roads with longer hikes to trailheads... come over to the ADK's. (shhhh!)

I'm also with Michael J about all of those trails out of Appalachia - I couldn't figure out why so many. (And to Marty and Mike - this thread was in the "Spirit of Bushwhacking" - them trails will likely stay in place )

 

[dug]

I knew you couldn't stay out! It's only a dream, only a dream...

I'm aware that things sucked then, maybe even more than now. Is what we have now really progress? There's no work, war, soaring prices, crashing markets. Big companies are sucking us dry. Insurance companies and lawyers make decisions everyday that control the way we live. Drug manufacturers choose who lives and dies by how much money and insurance they have. If my kids ever own a home it will probably be a foreclosure.

Well, it wasn't my intention, but I seem to have successfully hijacked this thread. Sorry! I'll keep my mouth shut next time. Funny, most people who know me accuse me of being too much of a realist, and here I'm being castigated for being a dreamer.

KDT

Yup, in the early 1900's, there was no work, a Depression, war, soaring pricing, crashing markets. Big companies were sucking people dry.

Anyhoo, the point was that to urban crawl and creep are inevitable. It's nice to wish for the good ole' days, but we are not in the good ole' days. We need roads to get medicine to the North Country. Facilities. Services. It's not realistic to wish to eliminate the services that are so vital for the thousands of families who depend on them. Families like my own.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Roads

Again, I feel that you're taking this as an affront to the good people of the North Country and it certainly is not. I would no more deny you or your family these things than I would slash and burn the mountainsides.

"It's not realistic to wish to eliminate the services that are so vital for the thousands of families who depend on them. Families like my own."

Not all dreams are realistic. I don't think anyone is going to rip up the roads because I posted that I wish they weren't there. My wish is that I could see the mountains in the pristine condition they were what, 200 years ago, longer?

I know, I can't. That's realistic.

"Anyhoo, the point was that to urban crawl and creep are inevitable."

Doesn't mean it's a good thing.

"It's nice to wish for the good ole' days, but we are not in the good ole' days."

No kiddin'. I don't think the "good ol' days" were any better or worse than now. Every generation has it's trials.

Why do you live in the mountains? Why do I wish I could live in the mountains? Because it is the mountains, I think, but I'm just a flatlander with unrealistic flatlander dreams.

KDT

 

[forestgnome]

Tweeeeeeeet! ( Hi Dave )

I think that KDT was just relating a common vision of a vast area untouched by man. Such an idealistic vision is part of our culture, and has been for centuries. I bushwack the WMNF because I wish to immerse myself in a place that is as "natural" as possible, and I manage to find many such places where I bushwack for many miles and hours.

As a working class person who lives locally, I also understand the sentiments expressed about the implausibility of such utopia over such a wide expanse. Locals do hear this often and wonder how it could be an expected reality.

I don't think KDT was advocating any utopian destruction of existing infrastuctures that support our economy and enable those from away to actually experience the WMNF.

 

[dug]

Just rufflin' a bit KDT. No harm intended Peace.

 

[NewHampshire]

I don't think KDT was advocating any utopian destruction of existing infrastuctures that support our economy and enable those from away to actually experience the WMNF.

Indeed, quite true. The entire point of this thread is a flight of fancy, and I wonder why so much heated animosity is being skipped around over a plain and simple idea that would never actually happen anyways?

Brian

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Indeed, quite true. The entire point of this thread is a flight of fancy, and I wonder why so much heated animosity is being skipped around over a plain and simple idea that would never actually happen anyways?

Brian

That is certainly what I thought we were talking about.

I could have just as easily said that I wish I was born 100 years ago before those routes where there.

Imagine.

Keith

 

[--M.]

Oh. I actually wanted all the locals to get out, ripping up the highways behind them, and then swing by my place in the suburbs to give me their money before they continued on the live out their squalid lives in the terrors of New York City (New York City!). I thought we could really do that. Damn!

Did you know that Swift's actual "Modest Proposal" was that the Irish solve their hunger by eating their young? Happy [belated] Saint Patrick's Day!

 

[RoySwkr]

Easy... Eliminate the Kanc.

Wilderness policy philosopher Phil Levin had a slightly different proposal - eliminate all trailheads along the Kanc. The E Branch country would seem a lot more remote if you walked in from Zealand Notch or Ethan Pond.

Obviously this idea was a non-starter and the FS instead built the huge complex at Lincoln Woods.

There would certainly be no 4000 footer club without the road access.

The Kanc wasn't plowed across until the mid-60s, but that didn't keep Miriam and others from the winter 4k.

Eliminating roads from all notches would make it harder to climb the 4k as day jaunts from Boston, but would have minimal effect on backpackers.

 

[Grayjay]

Just an aside, but its interesting how taking away trails is considered a flight of fancy but adding trails is not. Its the old left brained "lets built it" attitude. I mention it, because I think that a lot of the suggestions for adding trails are fligths of fancy too. But since society is geared for development, that is somehow considered more responsible.
A very scary attitude I must say. Hello, southern NH, here you come!

 

[Waumbek]

Just an aside, but its interesting how taking away trails is considered a flight of fancy but adding trails is not. Its the old left brained "lets built it" attitude. I mention it, because I think that a lot of the suggestions for adding trails are fligths of fancy too. But since society is geared for development, that is somehow considered more responsible.
A very scary attitude I must say. Hello, southern NH, here you come!

Actually, my "where would you build a trail" thread was posed as a flight of fancy, a wish list, not a "let's build it" imperative. It acknowledged the issue of "ethics":

"The 'enhancing the view' thread has set me to thinking about trail construction and the development of the trail system in the Whites. If you could--and wanted to--where would you build a trail in the Whites? Or which abandoned trail would you restore? Why? This isn't about reality--wilderness regs, the ethics of yet more trails, the cost of constructing and maintaining them, and so forth--just a wish list. I'm curious how hikers view the function(s) of a trail."

At least a few people, notably Kevin Rooney, responded in kind. I asked the theoretical question because, as I said, I am interested in trail-building mentality now and then (e.g., 1870s-90s), not because I want to develop trails. What will turn us into So. NH aint gonna happen until the second-home real estate (everybody who wants a little "cabin in the woods" up here) slump picks up again; a few more trails won't do it.